Operating my washing machine off solar.

nobody928

I bought a wetherking shed to turn in to a laundry room. They have metal roofs and i think I could easily install some solar panels to run a washer and a propane dryer.

I have plugged in my Kil-a-watt meter to my whirlpool top-loading washer. It reaches about 600 watts tops at its peak spin cycle.

I want to build a solar panel system to be able to use the washer for two hours a day.

I was thinking 3x 140 watt solar panels and 2 6v G.C. batteries along with a 10 amp mppt controller would do the trick. Do you think a 1500 watt 3000 watt max inverter will do the trick for the starting surge? My killawatt meter doesn't seem to pick up the initial starting surge. Does anyone know the average starting surge of a washer?

Can I get some help with the math behind the configuration?

500watts x 1 hour =500wh but how does that compare to the amp hours of the batteries?

Cariboocoot

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

Problem with washing machines is that they surge repeatedly during the cycles. Every time the agitator motor fires up, another big surge. And it is big because it is a high-torque motor starting against the weight of a loaded wash basket.

If you've ever noticed washing machines are one of the things that can dim the lights in a typical household. They usually have their own 20 Amp dedicated line if the wiring has been done up properly. It could very well test the limits of the 3kW surge rating. To that end, surge ratings aren't terribly reliable either as the ratings are for a short period of time. Quite often they forget to mention just how short.

Also you seem to be planning a 12 Volt system. As such the DC current draw under maximum load will be quite high: 600 Watts is roughly 50 Amps, plus conversion and inverter consumption. When the surge hits ... well 3kW on 12 Volts is a whopping 250 Amps. Under these circumstances you get Voltage sag which makes it worse.

I think you might be better off if you either use a gen to run the washer when needed or go to a 24 Volt system for it or at least get a good 2kW inverter like a ProSine and make sure the DC cables are 4/0 and short with every connector kept in top condition.

Also beware that gas dryers may have 'glow element' ignition which burns up Watts the whole time the dryer is on to make sure the gas will ignite as needed. These elements can be 500 Watts and consume quite a bit of power over the drying time.

If anyone has any more numbers for various washers and/or gas dryers I think we'd all like to see them.

jcheil

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

I just bought a brand new "Energy Star" top load washer.

I know the front loaders are more energy efficient but i don't care for the fact that they use so little water and in our sandy environment things never seems to get clean.

In any event, you mention the start up surge. Well, in the top loaders I had always known in the past, you had a start up surge and then thru a mechanical transmission the tub agitated back and forth. So you got the surge once and then it leveled out when the motor got up to speed.

Well, these new "efficient" models electrically reverse the motor back and forth every second to produce the agitation. Never seen anything like it before. Well, as you can imagine, while it is in "wash" cycle, the needle on my analog amp meter connected to my inverter is dancing like the old-school db meters on my stereo (up to about 8 amps and then down to near zero every second).

Not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing. Although it does claim to use (according to the energy star guide sticker) about half what regular washers use. I only do one (maybe two loads a week) and have excess power in the daytime and always do the wash then and on my 3000w inverter it doesn't seem to complain at all.

Surprisingly, the dryer (propane), also brand new, draws about 7 amps all the time just to turn the motor/drum. I have a feeling the power factor on that is pretty crappy also. Will check that this weekend.

zoneblue

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

Our 1kW inverter runs our washer no trouble. In fact yesterday, i had a crockpot on high (300W), and the desktop computer, and the washer on, and it still ran fine. However these are fisher and pykel smart drive washers that use permanent magnet direct drive motors. Rather a different beast to the old fashioned motor, gearbox, clutch arrangement. I dont know how prevalent this kind of motor technology is overseas, but its certainly true that washers no longer use the "1500W" that old demand calculators would have you using.

waynefromnscanada

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

zoneblue wrote: »

Our 1kW inverter runs our washer no trouble. In fact yesterday, i had a crockpot on high (300W), and the desktop computer, and the washer on, and it still ran fine. However these are fisher and pykel smart drive washers that use permanent magnet direct drive motors. Rather a different beast to the old fashioned motor, gearbox, clutch arrangement. I dont know how prevalent this kind of motor technology is overseas, but its certainly true that washers no longer use the "1500W" that old demand calculators would have you using.

The motors in your washer would be inverter driven, giving them extremely low to no start surge. Unfortunately they would not be used in the average, run-of-the-mill machines, instead, these machines use the traditional split phase motors that suck back so much power to start that they give many homes on grid, a brief encounter with brownout conditions before they get up to speed. Sad, but hey, that's the result of competing for the lowest price points.
I hope and suspect the machine Jcheil has isn't that bad. Trial and error may be the only way to tell what inverter and battery bank will run it.
Re the 7 amps draw of the propane dryer, a good bit of that may be the "glow bar" ignition system. Some of these glow bars suck up 500 watts the full time the dryer is running. At that rate, add a few more watts and we'd have a full electric dryer. Makes no sense to me.

jcheil

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

I hope and suspect the machine Jcheil has isn't that bad. Trial and error may be the only way to tell what inverter and battery bank will run it.
Re the 7 amps draw of the propane dryer, a good bit of that may be the "glow bar" ignition system. Some of these glow bars suck up 500 watts the full time the dryer is running. At that rate, add a few more watts and we'd have a full electric dryer. Makes no sense to me.

I checked all of the internal working parts (when I installed the NG to LP conversion kit) and my dryer doesn't have a glow bar in it. It has a small ignighter circuit that draws about 500w for about 3 seconds to start the flame, then it goes out and does not come on again unless the temperature needs to cycle. When set to high, it never cycles. Sadly too, I just think they are cheap motors they put in everything now-a-days. Still, running at 7 amps (120v) is WAY better than what the draw would be for an electric heating element on a 240V electric dryer.

As for the washer (and dryer), I am going to run a load this weekend thru the kill-a-watt meter and get an exact total power consumption number. I will also use my DC clamp meter and get peek surge current reading from both. They are the new Maytag Centennial series BTW.

Cariboocoot

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

Already we see why the question "How much power does a (device) use?" can't be answered in one go.

Engineering rule: there's always more than one way to achieve the same results.

I'm going to test my washer (conventional) today and see if the UPC meter can catch the start surge.

Cariboocoot

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

First numbers: 9.68 Amps peak @ 119 VAC or 1151 Watts. I don't think it got the full start surge on that as it is running at 8.5 Amps @ 114 VAC (yes it sucks the Voltage down that much) or 969 Watts. Meanwhile the Watts measure is jumping around between 500 and 850.

I guess you can say "poor power factor" and "uses a lot of power" for this conventional Kenmore.

zoneblue

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

The motors in your washer would be inverter driven, giving them extremely low to no start surge. Unfortunately they would not be used in the average, run-of-the-mill machines, instead, these machines use the traditional split phase motors that suck back so much power to start .

I dont know how they work, but F&P make id say about 80% of washers here, its a NZ company better known for its "dish drawer" dish washers on over seas markets. I have owned three of them over the years (theyve been made since the 90s) and the only part ive ever replaced is the cold water solonoid. One of them made it to the 20yr mark, and we gave it away when we moved house, in perfect working condition.

BTW that same motor is also used in some pelton wheel hydro units... as a generator.

waynefromnscanada

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

zoneblue wrote: »

I dont know how they work, but F&P make id say about 80% of washers here, its a NZ company better known for its "dish drawer" dish washers on over seas markets. I have owned three of them over the years (theyve been made since the 90s) and the only part ive ever replaced is the cold water solonoid. One of them made it to the 20yr mark, and we gave it away when we moved house, in perfect working condition.

BTW that same motor is also used in some pelton wheel hydro units... as a generator.

Sure sounds like you got lucky and have a very well built and efficient machine. Wish we had them here in Canada.

westbranch

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

they are here, just have to search a bit. Cousin has had a fridge for ~ 10 years..pricey though

http://www.caplans.ca/brand/fisher-and-paykel

BB.

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

I purchased a Fisher and Paykel Clothes Washer and "Top Load" drier about 10 years ago... Other than some problems lighting the flame in the drier (they had problems fixing that one)--They have operated perfectly since.

-Bill

solar_dave

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

Sure sounds like you got lucky and have a very well built and efficient machine. Wish we had them here in Canada.

looks like they are here in the US of A.
http://www.us-appliance.com/wl4227j1.html

icarus

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

It sort of begs the question...if have enough solar for running a washing machine, don't you have enough to line dry the laundry?

Tony

waynefromnscanada

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

icarus wrote: »

It sort of begs the question...if have enough solar for running a washing machine, don't you have enough to line dry the laundry?

Tony

Excellent point! I gave away my dryer about 7 years ago, after not using it for about 5 years, and have never looked back!
And on top of that, the clothes last much longer!

nobody928

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

Excellent point! I gave away my dryer about 7 years ago, after not using it for about 5 years, and have never looked back!
And on top of that, the clothes last much longer!

Line drying works great unless its raining. I like to have a back up plan.

Cariboocoot

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

nobody928 wrote: »

Line drying works great unless its raining. I like to have a back up plan.

But if it is raining you have no solar.
Generators work any time, and are a good solution to the problem of occasionally needing large amounts of power off-grid or on.

nobody928

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

But if it is raining you have no solar.
Generators work any time, and are a good solution to the problem of occasionally needing large amounts of power off-grid or on.

True. That's why it would be nice to find a propane dryer that does not use a constant glow bar. Then you would have the best of both worlds. Plus a size-able battery bank will help with cloudy days to some extent.

Right now im using a generator to operate the washing machine. The only problem is that the wife cant start the generator by her self so I want something more automatic for her. Im open to any ideas and suggestions.

vtmaps

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

nobody928 wrote: »

Right now im using a generator to operate the washing machine. The only problem is that the wife cant start the generator by her self so I want something more automatic for her. Im open to any ideas and suggestions.

How about an electric start generator? --vtMaps

nobody928

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

vtmaps wrote: »

How about an electric start generator? --vtMaps

I could buy the champion auto start gen. for around 480.00 or I could invest 1000 in to solar and not pay for gas.

I already have a charge controller im not using. I can buy good 200ah agm batteries for around 100 each and panels for around 170. And an inverter for around 250. So Im not sure the best route just yet. Still weighing my options.

Also with a generator I'm gonna have to constantly be pulling it in and out of the shed.

jcheil

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

OK, I did the test on my new ones this weekend with the kill-a-watt meter and the washer uses .14kwh for a super sized complete load. The peak surge was 800 watts (according to my ac clamp-on meter).

And the other poster was right, regarding my dryer, the 800w it was drawing was just when the igniter circuit was on, after that goes off, it settles down to 275w for the rest of the cycle. I didn't monoitor it the entire time, but on the high setting I don't think it cycled at all. Just full heat all the time so the igniter never had to come back on again. Total drying time, 1 hour, .27kwh.

But the washer does still do that annoying surge back and forth due to the design of the motor reversing rather than a mechanical agitation so it spends one second at 800w, then one second off (while it reverses direction), then back to 800w, etc, etc. All in all, the end result is a what seems to be a rather small amount of energy usage in the end. it just uses it in a lot of "surges".

zoneblue

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

they are here, just have to search a bit. Cousin has had a fridge for ~ 10 years..pricey though

http://www.caplans.ca/brand/fisher-and-paykel

Yes those are the smart drive units.
http://www.caplans.ca/product/fisher-paykel-wa4127g1-traditional-top-load-washer

Next wash ill turn the fridge and other loads off and do a whizbang plot of the wash cycle.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

But if it is raining you have no solar.

And... as our washer is plumbed direct to a 24v pump by the creek, it saves on (rain) tank water. But its a fast flowing mountain stream that gets high sediment load when it rains.

So washing day, is one with lots of sun, (for the power), and so that the clothes will line dry... and its by defintion not raining, so that means that the stream water will not clog the sediment filters.

Perfect laundry harmony!

Ralph Day

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

When building a screened porch I included an 8x8foot area, not in the screened area but still roof covered, for an umbrella type clothes line/dryer. If it rains, I just leave the clothes out there for another day. It's really not the sun that dries the laundry, but the air movement. Winter drying done on lines in the basement where the wood stove provides the heat. Again, a small fan to circulate the air helps things dry. Washday Monday, take it down on Wednesday.

Some days when hung outside the first load can be dry before the last load is hung (2 hours or so). Haven't used the dryer in 25 years. Removed the heating element power, just tumbles. It makes a handy shelf for the laundry soap.

Ralph

vtmaps

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

zoneblue wrote: »

Perfect laundry harmony!

I have a simile viewpoint: A day without laundry is like a day without sunshine. --vtMaps

jcheil

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

Ralph Day wrote: »

When building a screened porch I included an 8x8foot area, not in the screened area but still roof covered, for an umbrella type clothes line/dryer. If it rains, I just leave the clothes out there for another day. It's really not the sun that dries the laundry, but the air movement. Winter drying done on lines in the basement where the wood stove provides the heat. Again, a small fan to circulate the air helps things dry. Washday Monday, take it down on Wednesday.

Some days when hung outside the first load can be dry before the last load is hung (2 hours or so). Haven't used the dryer in 25 years. Removed the heating element power, just tumbles. It makes a handy shelf for the laundry soap.

Ralph

Unfortunately, here in Florida, with the high humidity, and the "daily" rain/thunderstorms in the summer, they would never dry if left out when raining.
Now, when it is a clear day, they dry in no time at all.

TorontoTim

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

Just ran a regular load (about 1 hour) through my GE compact front load washer with the Kill A Watt on. Total 0.07kw used. Seemed to max out around 280w when in high-speed spin mode but much of the time was spent around 20-30w to tumble and 100w for lower speed spins.

Was hoping to see/record surge watts required but I never saw it surge beyond the running wattage or amperage. Seems running a small front-load washer would be pretty easy on a solar setup.

Cariboocoot

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

TorontoTim wrote: »

Just ran a regular load (about 1 hour) through my GE compact front load washer with the Kill A Watt on. Total 0.07kw used. Seemed to max out around 280w when in high-speed spin mode but much of the time was spent around 20-30w to tumble and 100w for lower speed spins.

Was hoping to see/record surge watts required but I never saw it surge beyond the running wattage or amperage. Seems running a small front-load washer would be pretty easy on a solar setup.

Unfortunately the K-A-W does not sample fast enough to catch those current peaks.
But overall that sounds like a pretty good, low-power machine.

TorontoTim

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Unfortunately the K-A-W does not sample fast enough to catch those current peaks.
But overall that sounds like a pretty good, low-power machine.

It's a smaller 24" model, as that's all that would fit up my 100 year old stairs and through the door into the 2nd floor laundry. It replaced a set of Maytags we bought 15 years ago when we bought the house, as they could be disassembled and reassembled in the room without voiding warranty. The drum seal finally went on the washer so I took it as a sign to replace with more efficient front-loaders.

Model is WCVH4800KWW. Perusing the Home Depot appliance section, I saw a few washers claiming to only use $11 in electricity on an annual basis.

I'm looking forward to putting a washer in at the cottage Figure one will easily run off a 1500w inverter (3000w surge) and bank of 4 S-550 batteries.

vtmaps

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

TorontoTim wrote: »

Just ran a regular load (about 1 hour) through my GE compact front load washer with the Kill A Watt on. Total 0.07kw used.

I looked up model WCVH4800KWW. It claims an energy consumption of 122 kwh per year. If each load is .07 kwh, then they are basing their energy consumption numbers on over 1700 loads per year. I don't think so.

I don't know how they come up with their numbers, but I believe that energy consumption is NOT electricity consumption. Might have something to do with water consumption... on the theory that using less HOT water is more important than using less electricity.

--vtMaps

Vic

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

FWIW, see this for some of the variables in the Energy Consumption Tests for washing machines:

http://www.bigee.net/media/filer_public/2013/03/28/bigee_domestic_washing_machines_test_procedures_20130328.pdf

Vic

TorontoTim

Re: Operating my washing machine off solar.

vtmaps wrote: »

I looked up model WCVH4800KWW. It claims an energy consumption of 122 kwh per year. If each load is .07 kwh, then they are basing their energy consumption numbers on over 1700 loads per year. I don't think so.

I don't know how they come up with their numbers, but I believe that energy consumption is NOT electricity consumption. Might have something to do with water consumption... on the theory that using less HOT water is more important than using less electricity.

--vtMaps

Yeah, not sure how they come up with these things. It's CEE Tier 2 compliant also, which factors in not only the energy to wash, but to dry as well! Not sure how you rate a washer on the energy needed to dry a load, but whatever.

My KAW didn't spike at all while running it and I kept a close eye on it when the spin cycles started. I'd imagine at least once or twice I'd see it spike to 2000w or something if it was going to. Never saw anything above around 300w during the run.

Going to try the meter on it again just for kicks.