Generator question and Outback G Inverters.

I am aware that an Inverter generator is needed for generator support for Outback's GVFX inverters, but my question is can a non-inverter generator be used to power the inverter to charge batteries?

mtdoc?

Comments

  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Generator question and Outback G Inverters.

    Yes.
    The trick is that the generator (power) input parameters are programmed properly. Normally the G series will have very 'tight' specs for Voltage and frequency; you have to widen the range so the inverter doesn't drop it as "bad power".
  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    Re: Generator question and Outback G Inverters.

    I've never tried it so I don't know. I've only used my Honda eu2000s. I do have a 7500 watt Troy Built noise maker that I could try it out with but unfortunately not anytime in the near future...

    What 'coot says sounds right but you might want to check on the Outback forum for confirmation.
  • verdigo
    verdigo Solar Expert Posts: 428 ✭✭
    Re: Generator question and Outback G Inverters.
    mtdoc wrote: »
    I've never tried it so I don't know. I've only used my Honda eu2000s. I do have a 7500 watt Troy Built noise maker that I could try it out with but unfortunately not anytime in the near future...

    What 'coot says sounds right but you might want to check on the Outback forum for confirmation.

    Good enough.I will try that now.
  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    Re: Generator question and Outback G Inverters.

    Of course you will probably get someone saying "the manual says to use an inverter generator. Outback doesn't support it", etc.

    You would want to have it hooked up just as you would grid input so the inverter thinks it's grid input. You might need to have the inverter running, choke off, etc before you flipped the transfer switch. You would want to be sure you had selling turned off.

    Grid power varies tremendously in quality and of course this is why Outback lets you broaden the acceptable voltage and frequency parameters so unless you have really crappy generator output I don't see why it shouldn't work.
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Generator question and Outback G Inverters.

    It works on my 20 KW, but it's got a $1,800 AVR that gives less than a 3% distortion. As long as the power is clean wouldn't think it would be much of a issue. Keeping the loads consistent as you can will help. The other option is use a stand alone charger and forget the Inverter, you'll lose a little in conversion, no big deal.
  • verdigo
    verdigo Solar Expert Posts: 428 ✭✭
    Re: Generator question and Outback G Inverters.
    The other option is use a stand alone charger and forget the Inverter, you'll lose a little in conversion, no big deal.

    I have to buy an inverter anyway. It would just be nice to use my current generator for a while as I have future plans on one of the eu Honda generators at a later date. I guess I will just try and see if it works. Maybe I won't need the eu****. :confused:
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Generator question and Outback G Inverters.
    verdigo wrote: »
    I am aware that an Inverter generator is needed for generator support for Outback's GVFX inverters, but my question is can a non-inverter generator be used to power the inverter to charge batteries?

    verdigo, do you really need gen support? do you have loads beyond what your EM2500 can handle? If not, consider the Outback vfx inverters, no gen support, but much more tolerant of imperfect power.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • verdigo
    verdigo Solar Expert Posts: 428 ✭✭
    Re: Generator question and Outback G Inverters.
    vtmaps wrote: »
    verdigo, do you really need gen support? do you have loads beyond what your EM2500 can handle? If not, consider the Outback vfx inverters, no gen support, but much more tolerant of imperfect power.

    --vtMaps

    The question was not about generator support to supplement loads in excess of the rated output for the Outback grid interactive inverters, (excluding Radian). It was about whether or not I could use a non-inverter generator to charge batteries using a GVFX inverter instead of a VFX inverter.

    For the money invested, I would very much like to use the power to decrease my electric bill. For that I need a G inverter in order to sell or get credit for what I produce. I realize I may have to replace my old generator with an inverter generator to do this. Just trying to see if others have tried it.

    Thanks

    Dennis
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Generator question and Outback G Inverters.

    Why an inverter would work with an inverter generator and wouldn't work with regular generator? The only reason I can think of is that it expects an exceptional quality of power. If that's the case, it is vety unlikely you find an answer to this question because it depends on both your specifuc generator and your specific inverter. If you are already set on the inverter model, the best way is to buy it and try. Then, if it doesn't work, you buy an inverter generator.

    If inverter accepts the generator it should both charge and support loads, otherwise you would need to disconnect loads.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Generator question and Outback G Inverters.

    "Fixed RPM" (non-inverter) generators of a smaller capacity would have more difficulty functioning with inverter support because load changes represent a greater portion of their capacity. As such it will load the generator more, causing change both in engine RPM and quality of output (Voltage drop, frequency shift) which could easily throw it out of range for the inverter.

    This is not so much of a problem when it is used for charging only, because you are relying on the loads being supplied partly from both power sources so they should be better matched to the generator's output. Just remember that the battery charging is also a load.
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Generator question and Outback G Inverters.
    verdigo wrote: »
    For the money invested, I would very much like to use the power to decrease my electric bill. For that I need a G inverter in order to sell or get credit for what I produce.

    Oh! you're on the grid?!? (your signature didn't give me a clue) That changes everything... 'Blackcherry04' mentioned a solution: standalone battery charger.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Generator question and Outback G Inverters.

    Here are the issues.

    1) The Input to the GVFX is bi-directional, one Input. When you select " Gen " the sell is shut off. This you have to do Manually and you use " Gen " settings. Those settings are totally different from the "Grid" Input settings.

    2) If Pass-through power is bad, it stays bad, the Inverter cannot clean it up, The inverter cannot stay synced to it.

    3) When the Gen input goes out of spec the inverter will drop it. It will pick it back up once it stabilizes, but it can get into a loop of drop and pick up. ( there are adjustments to negate this, but it's hard to set with any consistency because it's a moving target).

    4) The charger is constantly trying to adjust itself to its limit and pass through demand and will have a more limited output.

    5) The Generator Support pulls in and everything changes.

    What I am saying is there is a lot of moving pieces to it and you end up with the different settings fighting with each other. Your generator won't be able to help with this. If it works, it works. You're going to have to test it and see how it reacts to the loading. The Mate has plenty of settings, AC in, Charger Limits, HI /Lo volts, # cycles of out spec before drop, reconnect time. etc.

    In the end a stand alone charger will work best for max battery charging, unless you get an Inverter Generator. Even with it, you'll have to find how to make it work the best for your use.

    In case you didn't notice the one setting they have fixed in some range is Frequency . The problem with a non Inverter generator is the frequency is pegged to the RPM and voltage and controlled by the governor. A sag in one throws the other off.

    Here is what I'd do, change the default Gen settings as wide as they can go (except for cycles set to 6 ). Set the AC in Limits, Set the charger limit to 2 amps AC. Turn the loads off, turn charger off. Set the Input to "Gen". Try to connect the generator; if it picks it up and syncs to it, you're 1/4 the way there. Test a small load and see if it holds. If it holds , play with the loading. If it drops it then see if it re-connects. dropping is not always bad, but is if it's constant; you'll burn the relays up. If that works, turn the charger on. Again load it and unload it. If it holds, play with the charger limits and see how stable it is. Last, you can turn the Generator support on and see what it does with loads. Eventually you can raise the charger limits. You're looking to find the sweet spots. With the Mate you can change the settings on the fly. I change the AC in and charger setting 3-4 times a day depending what I am doing. If I am running an A/C, I cut them back and let it charge on the off cycle of the A/C.

    There is nothing in this that is Black and White, that's why no one can give you a 100% answer; each setup will be different. Once you have lived with it 24/7 for a year, you'll know a whole lot more.
    .
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Generator question and Outback G Inverters.

    If you haven't bought the inverter yet, Xantrex XW series inverters have two inputs - one for the grid and one for the generator. And they're not picky about generators. They are not designed for situations where you want to avoid selling or minimize grid usage, but if you want to keep batteries on float and sell the rest, they'll do it very well.
  • verdigo
    verdigo Solar Expert Posts: 428 ✭✭
    Re: Generator question and Outback G Inverters.

    I haven't bought an inverter yet, but am pretty much settled on the Outback. As for the generator I will likely play with it to see if I can use it to charge batteries through the inverter without other loads. My battery bank will likely stay small for a while until I am confident I can manage them without killing them. BC-04 suggested a good plan of attack. I'll just have to revisit this thread once I get everything connected and initially set up.

    Thanks for all the interest and helpful info. I will post results once I try it.

    Dennis