Help Stop APS from taxing solar

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  • MikeSus
    MikeSus Solar Expert Posts: 64 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
    solar_dave wrote: »
    That being said, APS is willing to grandfather existing customer and only impose this "fee" on new customer wanting solar.

    Given the rest of the lies, I doubt this...
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar

    The whole Solar Business is Smoke and Mirrors, it's all been bait and switch as long as I have been around it. The whole SREC market has collapsed unless it is state sponsored. Your at the mercy of the Investors that prop up these markets until they have gained all they can and they pull out with the money and leave everyone holding the bag.
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar

    Well, being from 'out of state(s)' my view is that those 'delivery charges' are just as likely to go up, go up fast, once the utilities get a taste of that new found revenue.
    They did the same ( specific charges for all items) here in BC and I am just waiting for the 'fine tuning' to occur.
    Sort of lucky we have a Commission that has to be convinced of the need for any increases but the members seem to be profit oriented some times.

    The latest is a smart meter related set of fees in BC:

    Smart meter installed = NO charge
    Radio off = $100 set up fee and a monthly $20 operating fee
    Old Meter = $35 monthly...

    Publicly they did not mention the middle (highest cost?) option in the press releases...
     
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar

    My observation is to "understand" that things are going to change. Take the utility's cost of doing business and their model for revenues. And see if there can be a "fair" method of distributing "costs of operations" across sources of revenues.

    In California, we have a dramtically different rate structure for "non-residential" customers.

    Roughly, 1/2 the costs are "fixed" monthly charges based on 15 minute peak power usage (in last year)--Reservation charges. And can include poor PF loads (heavy motors, kVAR charges). The other 1/2 (roughly) is the actual cost of power (generation and long distance transmission).

    From what I can see, solar PV power fairs very poorly on the Commercial market--Unless there are specific changes to billing/rate plans. For example, a large solar array can actually push up the Reservation Charges (charges are based on energy used or energy generated--direction of power flow does not matter).

    Don't ignore the utility's arguments... They (should) have some foundation for their point of view.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar

    Here is a pdf to prove my point about the ACC being in APS's pocket. This one is pretty unbelievable:

    http://images.edocket.azcc.gov/docketpdf/0000149442.pdf
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
    westbranch wrote: »
    Publicly they did not mention the middle (highest cost?) option in the press releases...

    Perhaps they added it later.
  • Ian S
    Ian S Solar Expert Posts: 35 ✭✭
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar

    Watch this morning's ACC proceedings live here.
  • Organic Farmer
    Organic Farmer Solar Expert Posts: 128 ✭✭
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar

    This could have effect on everyone in the nation. If one state does it, then, ...
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar

    It was a Interesting hearing, I listened all day. In the end they gave everyone something to walk away with. One thing that came out was that their mission is to all rate payers ( Solar and Non-Solar ) and if a industry benefits from their decisions so be it. It looks like the non-solar customers are on the hook for all the incentives that were accrued in years past to get Solar off the ground in the first place. Is this fair ?? Looks like the leasing company's are making the money and as I said, once the general partners have milked all the easy money they will disappear and the Limited Partners will be left holding the bag and dealing with the home owners in the end.

    I don't think I'd lease a system where cash flow was $5-$10 a month after the lease payment. You do get a fixed cost, but thats a long shot at best.
  • SolInvictus
    SolInvictus Solar Expert Posts: 138
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar

    In Arizona, a closely watched vote to decide solar policy's fate, WTAQ News, Nov. 14, 2013
    The Arizona Commission's five-member panel kicked off a two-day hearing in Phoenix on the issue on Wednesday, listening to dozens of comments on the issue from members of the public. The commissioners, who are elected, will weigh various proposals on modifying net metering policies on Thursday before taking a final vote on the issue.

    When might they vote?
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
    In Arizona, a closely watched vote to decide solar policy's fate, WTAQ News, Nov. 14, 2013



    When might they vote?
    They already did, about a hour ago.
  • solarix
    solarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar

    I'm loving it!! Keeps net-metering unchanged except a new monthly fee on solar customers of only 70cents/installed kW. Less than $5 month typically. That's nothing. And the best part is it doesn't effect existing customers and those that sign up before Dec 31. I love APS deadlines - solar business will boom for the next month. We'll be booked thru next summer.
  • MikeSus
    MikeSus Solar Expert Posts: 64 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
    solarix wrote: »
    I'm loving it!! Keeps net-metering unchanged except a new monthly fee on solar customers of only 70cents/installed kW. Less than $5 month typically. That's nothing. And the best part is it doesn't effect existing customers and those that sign up before Dec 31. I love APS deadlines - solar business will boom for the next month. We'll be booked thru next summer.

    And then what? Its ridiculous that they got this. Wait until the rate case, we will get royally shafted...
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar

    The way I read it was this is a foot in the door. The original amendment was $1 per KW of installed solar but was softened to appease the leasing companies. They reserve the right to come back and adjust it again before the rate case, it sounded like to me while I listened to some of the broadcast. The APS proposal was for a $50-$100 fee and this will be about $5-$10. I can see how the leasing companies would loose out on that deal. While I didn't hear the specifics of the grandfathering for existing solar installs, I assume they adopted the follow the property on the grandfathering clause.

    This sort of confirms the suspicion I had that they would do something, but less than what APS wanted, quite a bit less than APS wanted actually.

    My argument when the rate case comes up will be that the tariff should be change to show a line item per residence to reflect the infrastructure and maintenance cost, then reducing the the service delivery charges accordingly. Each residence receives the same benefit of being attached.

    A quick search engine query shows this went nationwide with the news.
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar

    I don't have a dog in this fight, don't even live in the state. Bottom line is that APS will always make all the profit margin they want and ALL the costs of Solar will be passed on to their non Solar Customers. That would be a tough one for me since all of my 51 first cousins live in the same town I do, I'd be afraid to come out of my house.
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar

    A letter to RUCO:
    The Residential Utility Consumer Office ("RUCO") was established by the Arizona Legislature in 1983 to represent the interests of residential utility ratepayers in rate-related proceedings involving public service corporations before the Arizona Corporation Commission ("ACC" or "Commission").

    I understand APS position on the the beneficial use of the grid as a storage medium for grid tie solar and somewhat agree that existing solar users reap that benefit. But solar users, like myself, have made a long term investment with the expectation of the financial stability of the net metering plan and should be treated as originally agreed upon. I do understand that a benefit does exists being attached to the grid.

    My position on the benefit we call the grid is that it's true for all residential consumers, so the rate structure should reflect this. A fixed fee for infrastructure and maintenance should be made part of all residential tariffs. If this was to happen then the current method of getting this cost on a per kWh would be removed from the tariffs and only Generation per kWh should be applied. If need be a tier structure could be put in place to make this less regressive, where a base fee is applied to all residential consumers and if a consumer goes over a predetermined amount of kWh consumption then a incrementally larger fee would be applied. Then the only needed per kWh charges would be for Generation.

    APS does get a benefit from solar that seems to have not been considered. They sell the back fed kWh at full retail including service delivery while really those electrons go no farther then the local transformer and are consumed very local to the generation, this eliminates any transmission loses or costs. They also don't need the additional generation infrastructure to be online that those kWh represent much of which is during peak demand periods. At year end they only are required to credit the generation avoidance amounts yet they sold the back feed kWh excess at full retail reaping the full benefit while only paying a very low generation base cost (Palo Verde) that is probably less than their average cost or spot market cost at the time of the generation.

    We should make every effort to address these issues at APS's next rate case hearing in order to level the playing field. Since you are my advocate in these matters I would expect you to represent all residential consumers against the predatory practices that APS has just shown they are capable of.
  • bill von novak
    bill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
    It looks like the non-solar customers are on the hook for all the incentives that were accrued in years past to get Solar off the ground in the first place. Is this fair?

    That's a great question. Initially utility solar support programs (which include net metering) benefited a few people at the expense of a lot of people, which meant a lot of benefit for a few at the cost of a very small penalty to a large number of people. Additionally, it was critically needed; solar was so expensive that you needed a lot of incentives to make it affordable even for the evangelists.

    Now that's changed. Solar is cheaper, so such support is not as critical. Far more people are installing solar, so to keep the benefits the same, other customers have to be impacted proportionally more. As solar installed base grows, utilities have to spend more time/effort managing unreliable supply. At some point someone is going to have to eat those growing costs. Will it always be "someone else?" Perhaps - but that will be a harder and harder sell as time goes on.
  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
    I don't have a dog in this fight, don't even live in the state. Bottom line is that APS will always make all the profit margin they want and ALL the costs of Solar will be passed on to their non Solar Customers.

    And how much per rate payer would that cost be, exactly?
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
    ggunn wrote: »
    And how much per rate payer would that cost be, exactly?
    They did say they have $700 million in bonds that will have to be paid off. I have no clue how much for each customer. The money doesn't fall from the sky.

    " The utility argued that the dramatic growth of residentialrooftop solar in its service territory - systems are being addedat a rate of about 500 a month - has shifted $18 million in annual costs to non-solar customers."
    .
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar

    For other utilities -- They seem to run around $40-$90 per month connection fees (and lower per kWH pricing with "new connection" charges).

    And, roughly, in Northern California, commercial billing nominally runs 50% of bill for infrastructure and 50% for direct generation chargers.

    So, when GT solar was 1% maximum of installed generation base, that would be ~$0.50 to $1.00 per month spread out over the 99% residential customer base (assuming ~$100-$200 per month average residential bill). If you have 10% GT solar, then the fixed charges would be around:

    $50 fixed costs * 10% customer base "avoided solar charges" * 1/0.90 non-solar customer base = $5.56

    So--My guess, you with a 10% GT solar base (I think California is heading towards 5% GT Base right now), you are looking at $5.50-$11 per month in GT solar "social" costs being spread around to the "average" non-solar customer. For customers with larger bills, their costs will be proportionally higher.

    That will give you an idea of where fixed costs are going/at for the moment.

    My other guess is when GT distributed solar meets/exceed ~10% of generation capacity--It will be a nightmare for utilities to keep their networks "stable"... They will either have to widen AC line frequency (to knock GT inverters off-line when generation exceeds network capacity)--Or there will have to be new GT inverters with radio control of GT inverter output to utility network.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • bill von novak
    bill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
    BB. wrote: »
    Or there will have to be new GT inverters with radio control of GT inverter output to utility network.

    -Bill

    I believe Germany already does this. New inverters sold in Germany have to accept a control signal that causes them to back off their power output.
  • SolInvictus
    SolInvictus Solar Expert Posts: 138
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar

    The media reports the vote was 3 to 2, but which commissioners voted for and against? Because these people appear on my ballot, I would like to know which ones to vote against.

    Gary Pierce
    Brenda Burns
    Bob Stump
    Susan Bitter Smith
    Bob Burns

    As the ACC increases the fees and taxes on grid-tied residential PV at some amount it will be cheaper to buy batteries and go off-gird. APS's proposed fee of about $1,000 / year would buy 18 L-16 batteries from NAWS every 5 years (2,100 W at the 20 hour discharge rate and 42 kWh of storage). That puts an upper bound on how high the fees and taxes could rise.
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
    The media reports the vote was 3 to 2, but which commissioners voted for and against? Because these people appear on my ballot, I would like to know which ones to vote against.

    Gary Pierce
    Brenda Burns
    Bob Stump
    Susan Bitter Smith
    Bob Burns
    There were at least 6 different amendments being voted on and those amendments had a bunch of moving parts. It 's hard to say what they voted for or against. Some voted yes on some amendments and some voted no and it switched back and forth until one had 3 votes. The one that passed was a compromise amendment of sorts the way I saw it.
  • Ian S
    Ian S Solar Expert Posts: 35 ✭✭
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
    There were at least 6 different amendments being voted on and those amendments had a bunch of moving parts. It 's hard to say what they voted for or against. Some voted yes on some amendments and some voted no and it switched back and forth until one had 3 votes. The one that passed was a compromise amendment of sorts the way I saw it.
    I attended the meeting on Wednesday morning and watched the live transmission on Thursday morning. It seemed to me that the two most accepting of APS' cost shift numbers were Pierce and Brenda Burns. It wouldn't surprise me to learn they were the ones voting against the final compromise as being too easy on solar.

    One thing that leapt out at me as I listened to the discussion was that "grandfathering" is quite meaningless. As it was clearly put: this Commission can't tie the hands of a future Commission so a commitment not to apply a fee to existing solar customers can be changed pretty much anytime but is especially possible when a new Commission is elected. This is a vexing problem for residential solar advocates as there is really no guarantee of how you'll be treated even in the near future notwithstanding the fact that your financial commitment may be for decades.
  • sam9887
    sam9887 Registered Users Posts: 1
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
    solarix wrote: »
    I'm loving it!! Keeps net-metering unchanged except a new monthly fee on solar customers of only 70cents/installed kW. Less than $5 month typically. That's nothing. And the best part is it doesn't effect existing customers and those that sign up before Dec 31. I love APS deadlines - solar business will boom for the next month. We'll be booked thru next summer.

    The problem is: they got foot in the door, and that door will never again be closed. It is quite low amount for now, but that's how the national tax started. When USA tax from physical persons first got introduced, it was maximum 3%, only for the most wealthy folks, and if you are against, just don't pay. Nobody goes to jail for skipping the tax. And look what it became now. That's exactly what will happen with APS: first they got a few pennies, then they get a few dollars, the next thing you see if that you can't afford it anymore.

    It's not about fairness. APS could care less if it's fair or not. It is about controlling what others do. Think about that: they essentially made having solar power system - on your OWN roof - a PRIVILEGE, that they give or take away, all it takes is bribe the right commissioner. If they truly wanted to make it fair, they could have introduced a system when they buy for say 10% less than they sell for - THAT would have been at least resembling fair. That option was never even on the table. They don't care about fair. They care for controlling out lives.

    Oh, and I appreciate how you first think about yourself, regardless that the rest are thrown under the bus. You been granted GRANDFATHER status. You are a different class now, not like the other peasants. You realize, it's not forever, right? The moment you sell house or add a couple panels, they got you, and you're back with the cattle.
  • Ian S
    Ian S Solar Expert Posts: 35 ✭✭
    Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
    sam9887 wrote: »
    The problem is: they got foot in the door, and that door will never again be closed. It is quite low amount for now, but that's how the national tax started. When USA tax from physical persons first got introduced, it was maximum 3%, only for the most wealthy folks, and if you are against, just don't pay. Nobody goes to jail for skipping the tax. And look what it became now. That's exactly what will happen with APS: first they got a few pennies, then they get a few dollars, the next thing you see if that you can't afford it anymore.

    It's not about fairness. APS could care less if it's fair or not. It is about controlling what others do. Think about that: they essentially made having solar power system - on your OWN roof - a PRIVILEGE, that they give or take away, all it takes is bribe the right commissioner. If they truly wanted to make it fair, they could have introduced a system when they buy for say 10% less than they sell for - THAT would have been at least resembling fair. That option was never even on the table. They don't care about fair. They care for controlling out lives.

    Oh, and I appreciate how you first think about yourself, regardless that the rest are thrown under the bus. You been granted GRANDFATHER status. You are a different class now, not like the other peasants. You realize, it's not forever, right? The moment you sell house or add a couple panels, they got you, and you're back with the cattle.
    In fact, the Commission agreed that grandfathering goes with the system so if you sell your house with the solar, the grandfathering goes with it. However, the "grandfathering" is meaningless as no Commission can tie a future Commission's hands.