I swear APS is trying to confuse me.

solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,330 ✭✭✭✭
OK so I currently use the APS 9am-9pm time advantage rate plan. https://www.aps.com/library/rates/et-1.pdf
And they have offered me a new rate plan because of the plug in cars. https://www.aps.com/library/rates/ET-EV.pdf

The new plan is a 3 tiered system while the old plan is 2 tiered. I think the new plan is a bit better because I can load shift some things like my pool, car charging, run down the AC temps on super off peak, etc. The real peak rate goes up quite a bit from the $0.178 on peak on the old plan to $0.2478 per kWh on the new plan, the caveat is I don't currently every buy much on peak and the purchase power has almost always been off peak on the old plan. The upside is the really high cost on peak time is much shorter, noon to 7PM.

Here are the old summer rates:
on-peak 9AM - 9PM $0.17892
off-peak 9PM - 9AM $0.05770

And the new plan
on-peak noon- 7PM $0.24784
off-peak 7PM - 11PM & 5AM - noon $0.06460
super off peak 11PM - 5AM $0.04195

The issue is it is very confusing, take a look at those PDFs, OMFG!

Anyone else run the numbers? Are they just trying to get change by obscuring the facts?

Comments

  • NorthGuyNorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,925
    Re: I swear APS is trying to confuse me.

    Unless you have your hour-by-hour usage data, it's all the guessing game.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,768 admin
    Re: I swear APS is trying to confuse me.

    I think Dave has the data:

    My TED 5000 system

    What about generation pay back? True Net Metering? And 1/2 your daily power generation (morning till noon) is now paying ~$0.06 per kWH. The Noon-sunset is now paying $0.24 per kWH... Vs $0.18 per kWH almost all your daytime power generation.

    Also, what happens with winter time billing rates? It looks like there is not a huge difference between winter and summer peak rates (in California, it can be 2x or greater between winter/summer peaks--but we have tiered pricing too).

    Your rate plan is a model of simplicity... We have teired rates (the more you use, the higher the kWH charges), we have weekday and weekend peak/off peak/partial peak schedules (no peak rate on weekends and holidays), and Winter/Summer time of use bins are all different... I would not want to try an explain to everyone in the home when they can turn on what appliances... I would tend to suggest staying with the simple plan from that point of view.

    I would not be surprised if the new plan is a wash to slightly worse off for you (think the utility would ever "do you a favor"?).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • NorthGuyNorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,925
    Re: I swear APS is trying to confuse me.
    BB. wrote: »
    I think Dave has the data:

    My TED 5000 system

    For some reason, doesn't open in my browser.

    If you do have data, it's very easy to calculate what would you pay in both cases and compare. I guess they will be within few dollars of each other.
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,330 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I swear APS is trying to confuse me.
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    For some reason, doesn't open in my browser.

    If you do have data, it's very easy to calculate what would you pay in both cases and compare. I guess they will be within few dollars of each other.

    Well I do have the data, the trick is figuring what would get shifted to what tier. I have started some data reduction and what if scenarios will happen from that.
  • solarixsolarix Solar Expert Posts: 713
    Re: I swear APS is trying to confuse me.

    I deal with APS rate plans all the time. The best one by far is your ET1 that is not available anymore unless you are grandfathered as you are. It is best for people with solar as almost all the solar generation falls on-peak. I suspect APS is trying to get you off this good plan. If you switch you'll find out for sure you can't go back.
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,311 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I swear APS is trying to confuse me.

    dave,
    from what solarix is saying, it looks as if your first instinct was correct as they are trying to confuse you in hopes you'll drop your present plan. they aren't going to try to get you into a plan that pays them less. does that make sense?
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,768 admin
    Re: I swear APS is trying to confuse me.

    If Arizona is like California--The peak power usage is from Noon to ~10pm at night on week days (at least at this time of year). I don't know, but it may because the commercial daytime power usage has crashed due to the poor economy because I don't remember maximum power usage this late at night from years ago.

    So--It does make sense that they would want to spread power usage outside the noon-10pm time frame.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,330 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I swear APS is trying to confuse me.
    solarix wrote: »
    I deal with APS rate plans all the time. The best one by far is your ET1 that is not available anymore unless you are grandfathered as you are. It is best for people with solar as almost all the solar generation falls on-peak. I suspect APS is trying to get you off this good plan. If you switch you'll find out for sure you can't go back.

    Yeah I suspected as much and I know I can't go back if I change. I have the raw data off the TED all the way back to July 10th of last year by house, office/shop, car chargers and solar, so I have started some Perl scripts to reduce it into 1HR chunks to help in the analysis. I know the pool uses right at 2kWh per hour of run time.

    I guess the goal here is to not buy any on-peak, minimize off-peak and use as much as possible on super off-peak and see what a year end total is along with monthly generation + service delivery costs. The rates given in those PDFs are the blended cost, but service delivery is based on you annual consumption YTD and so far this year we have dodged that bullet. Last month we had a $8.44 generation charge for $0.0204 kWh on 413 kWh, with no service delivery charge, dirt cheap. Reason being is we put 833 kWh into the grid on-peak. Last year we hit the cross over point on the service delivery charge in July but we never did consume the on-peak bank to zero. It is unclear to me right now if that is a fix amount per kWh or if it varies with TOU. Another question for APS.

    BTW the TED calculations are pretty worthless with any TOU plan unless it is like a $$$ credit and 2 tiers with summer and winter rates.

    From what I can tell so far they are just about giving away the super off peak generation with about $0.037 being the service delivery charge against a $0.04195 kWh blended rate.

    Edit:
    I do fear that they will soon pull the plug on the ET1 rate plan all together. The AZ Corporate Commission since the last election is now composed of people that are more favorable to APS. It would be interesting to see how many people are still on the ET1 rate plan, as APS could make the argument to the commission that is is too few to maintain that tariff. It has been several years now since they froze that tariff and as people sell, move and otherwise change it can only shrink the ET1 population.
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 4,827 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I swear APS is trying to confuse me.

    If you can not fetter out the numbers , I would sit tight. If they drop the plan in the future you will have more data to play with also...
     
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  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,330 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I swear APS is trying to confuse me.
    westbranch wrote: »
    If you can not fetter out the numbers , I would sit tight. If they drop the plan in the future you will have more data to play with also...

    I hear ya! I certainly won't jump with out the proper push!
    Schedule ET-EV shall be available until December 31, 2014. The Company may extend the availability beyond that time, at their discretion, with prior notification to the ACC.

    Another reason to be skeptical.

    Some more digging shows the next most favorable plan for Solar users may be E-12 standard plan with tier by consumption.
    https://www.aps.com/library/rates/e-12.pdf
  • DashadeauxDashadeaux Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭✭
    Re: I swear APS is trying to confuse me.

    I've taken the trouble to document the 22 APS tariff changes from Jan 01,2010 to present and have rolled those changes into an Excel Workbook. I am on the 9-9 plan and can calculate quite accurately what my bill would be had I been on the 12-7 or Standard plans. The best plan is hands down the 9-9.

    With your TED 5000 data resolution I "might" be able to provide (if desired) a Workbook that will show quite accurately what the bills would be if you move to another plan, but said Workbook will not be available for a couple months. It is difficult to show the exact differences unless full On/Off Peak generation and usage can be ascertained. The fly in the ointment might be determining the super peak kW charge.

    I don't understand the On/Off Peak Generation charge you've posted. The current 9-9 On/Off Peak Generation charge is Winter 0.11016/0.02044 and Summer 0.14375/0.02253

    P.S. The Workbook can easily indicate the impact of you switching to the ET-12 plan. My solar generation cuts my APS by 73% and it has only been in service since 6/4/2012. I expect it to settle in at 75% when I've got 12 months of data to work with, and hopefully now that I know how to manage my usage better I'll see about an 80% reduction by year end. Had I been on the ET-12 plan, my solar would have reduced my 6/1/2012 to 4/1/2013 total cost to $1,537 instead of the $755 provided by ET-1.
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,330 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I swear APS is trying to confuse me.
    Dashadeaux wrote: »
    I've taken the trouble to document the 22 APS tariff changes from Jan 01,2010 to present and have rolled those changes into an Excel Workbook. I am on the 9-9 plan and can calculate quite accurately what my bill would be had I been on the 12-7 or Standard plans. The best plan is hands down the 9-9.

    With your TED 5000 data resolution I "might" be able to provide (if desired) a Workbook that will show quite accurately what the bills would be if you move to another plan, but said Workbook will not be available for a couple months. It is difficult to show the exact differences unless full On/Off Peak generation and usage can be ascertained. The fly in the ointment might be determining the super peak kW charge.

    I don't understand the On/Off Peak Generation charge you've posted. The current 9-9 On/Off Peak Generation charge is Winter 0.11016/0.02044 and Summer 0.14375/0.02253

    It is the fully bundled cost. Sure would like to see the Spread sheet.

    The only reason I would even consider the standard plan is 8 out of 12 months I am on the plus side of the Generation.
  • DashadeauxDashadeaux Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭✭
    Re: I swear APS is trying to confuse me.

    OK,

    I'll send you a message when I've got the time to work on a WorkBook for you. Probably in June. I'll send a copy of my WorkBook for you to peruse, in the meantime.

    P.S. When it comes to reverse engineering the APS billing process, bundling doesn't work. Each and every line item must be considered at it's most basic level.
  • DashadeauxDashadeaux Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭✭
    Dave,

    What rate plan did you grandfather into?  I presume you are aware that a considerable amount of TOU Net Metering credits went away on 8/19.
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