Xantrex XW MPPT 80-600 for wind application

pechan

Will the XW-600 work in a wind application?
The manual only mentions PV source,
I have a kestrel 400i 380 volt 3000 watt turbine with a voltage limiter that I would like to find a charger for.

Matt

inetdog

Re: Xantrex XW MPPT 80-600 for wind application

pechan wrote: »

Will the XW-600 work in a wind application?
The manual only mentions PV source,
I have a kestrel 400i 380 volt 3000 watt turbine with a voltage limiter that I would like to find a charger for.

Matt

Chargers which do not allow you to customize the voltage versus current curves, overriding the MPPT algorithm, will not be particularly good for use with a wind turbine. And more importantly, you will need some sort of external clipper load or shunt load on the battery side so that the charger cannot just remove all load from the turbine when the wind is screaming and the batteries are full. That would be very bad for the turbine.

Since you mention a built-in "voltage limiter", that might be performing that function already. Or maybe not.

That is a serious sized turbine, and I suspect that ChrisOlson will have the best advice for you on what to do with it.

pechan

Re: Xantrex XW MPPT 80-600 for wind application

Yes the Voltage limiter will also work as a diversion load for the turbine, although I will be using a PLC, once I figure out the xanbus, to heat water
on the AC side of my system when I have extra wind or solar power.

ChrisOlson, what do you think?

inetdog

Re: Xantrex XW MPPT 80-600 for wind application

pechan wrote: »

Yes the Voltage limiter will also work as a diversion load for the turbine, although I will be using a PLC, once I figure out the xanbus, to heat water
on the AC side of my system when I have extra wind or solar power.

ChrisOlson, what do you think?

For the benefit of rubberneckers on the thread, the following is from an older thread:

This is what Hugh Pigott has to say about the Kestrel http://scoraigwind.co.uk/2011/11/kestrel-e400i-wind-turbine-on-scoraig/

ChrisOlson

Re: Xantrex XW MPPT 80-600 for wind application

pechan wrote: »

ChrisOlson, what do you think?

I think I would email Hugh and get the scoop on how he has that turbine set up on Scoraig. If you don't have his email, drop me a PM and I'll get you in touch with him.
--
Chris

pechan

Re: Xantrex XW MPPT 80-600 for wind application

I would think that he has the 48 volt version of the turbine.
I picked up one 48 volt model and one 380 vdc model surplus so I didnt have a choice or I would have gotten 2 48vdc.

ChrisOlson

Re: Xantrex XW MPPT 80-600 for wind application

It's possible he's using the 48V version, but I've never talked to him about that one.

For battery charging there's only one controller that can do wind with high voltage turbines, and that actually works, and that's the MidNite Classic. The trouble is the unusually high voltage. Transmitting the high voltage down the tower and on the wire run is no big issue. But it's going to have be stepped down with a transformer to use a commonly available controller with it for battery charging.

Not being familiar with that turbine (and Hugh is) I'm not sure if you can gain access to the generator phase leads and rewire it for the various voltages they come in, or if they have different stators for every model. Somehow you have to get the voltage down to around 250 to be able to use it with a MidNite Classic 250 controller.
--
Chris

inetdog

Re: Xantrex XW MPPT 80-600 for wind application

ChrisOlson wrote: »

It's possible he's using the 48V version, but I've never talked to him about that one.

For battery charging there's only one controller that can do wind with high voltage turbines, and that actually works, and that's the MidNite Classic. The trouble is the unusually high voltage. Transmitting the high voltage down the tower and on the wire run is no big issue. But it's going to have be stepped down with a transformer to use a commonly available controller with it for battery charging.

Not being familiar with that turbine (and Hugh is) I'm not sure if you can gain access to the generator phase leads and rewire it for the various voltages they come in, or if they have different stators for every model. Somehow you have to get the voltage down to around 250 to be able to use it with a MidNite Classic 250 controller.
--
Chris

pechan may not be able to use a transformer if the output is actually DC as he indicated. He would have to get access to the output on the other side of the diode bridge and work from there, using at least three wires instead of the two that a DC output would bring out of the generator.
As always, need to know more about how the 380 DC is actually built.

ChrisOlson

Re: Xantrex XW MPPT 80-600 for wind application

Those turbines have a 120 pole axial generator, and all generators produce AC power. Even if the rectifier is onboard, it doesn't make any difference. That can be defeated and transmit the AC power so you can use a transformer ahead of the rectifier.
--
Chris

inetdog

Re: Xantrex XW MPPT 80-600 for wind application

ChrisOlson wrote: »

...That can be defeated and transmit the AC power so you can use a transformer ahead of the rectifier.
--
Chris

But it would have to be a three-phase transformer setup, right? Possibly open delta, but if not it will take three separate transformers or one three-phase transformer, in any case with a wide input frequency range.
Roughly what would the AC frequency be at the point where the generator starts to produce useful power? I got the 120 pole part, but I have no idea what the RPM would be. Is there gearing?

pechan

Re: Xantrex XW MPPT 80-600 for wind application

I was told by kestrel that I could not simply tap the wires in the generator, that the turbine was actually wound for 380 vdc and I would have to rewind it to change the output voltage.

pechan

Re: Xantrex XW MPPT 80-600 for wind application

here I uploaded the voltage limiter manual: http://www.scribd.com/doc/135687848/Kestrel-e400i-380Vdc

pechan

Re: Xantrex XW MPPT 80-600 for wind application

The Generator
The Kestrel e400i generator is a completely sealed
unit and requires
no regular maintenance. The generator carries two
single deep
groove bearings and one double bearing assembly.
All bearings are
of a high quality and are sealed for life.
The generator is a brushless
single rotor axial flux permanent magnet assembly
with no less than
120 poles and sixty-two magnets. The magnets are
rare earth neodynum boron composition. The thermal management
in thegenerator ensures that the temperatures never reach
the Curie point.
The generator will never overheat and is rated for
100% duty cycle.
This means that the turbine is designed to produce
the full rating of
3kW for the complete duration of a high wind period
.
Unlike many generators, the Kestrel e400i produces
dc power. There
are therefore no inductive affects in cabling and
radiated emission is
absolutely minimal. The power output has a much
lower ripple
content compared to a three phase system. High
ripple content
reduces battery life and should be avoided.

inetdog

Re: Xantrex XW MPPT 80-600 for wind application

pechan wrote: »

here I uploaded the voltage limiter manual: http://www.scribd.com/doc/135687848/Kestrel-e400i-380Vdc

That is too bad. Looks like either they are not being completely frank with you about access to AC or they have done something very strange inside the generator like burying the rectifiers in the middle of the windings. :-) It is possible that what they really meant was that you could not get 48 volts AC or DC, not that you could not get high voltage AC. If the Kestrel produces a significant amount of power while the AC frequency is below 40 Hz or so, the transformers you need could get pretty heavy (iron, not copper) and maybe expensive. But if you take off the AC, the voltage limiter would become useless to you for turbine stabilization. Unless, of course, you took off AC for your transformer and left the rectifiers connected to drive the voltage limiter when you are not loading down the AC enough to control the turbine.

It seems clear that this turbine model was developed to be used with a grid-tie inverter, which can handle an input voltage a high as 600 volts or so.
They specifically mention the Windy Boy from SMA. Since you are off-grid, it may be economical for you to go with the Windy Boy and Sunny Island combination. That assumes that the Windy Boy GTI can work off-grid with the Sunny Island in the same way that the Sunny Boy does. That is, with its output power controllable by the Sunny Island by varying the SI output frequency.
Other than that, a high voltage DC to DC converter may be the only other way you can go.

An interesting area of technology that is currently very limited in power and efficiency is the battery-less operation of a mostly grid-tie inverter which SMA has incorporated into their latest line of GTIs. They only produce AC when the sun is shining on the panels (that is, when the GTI gets DC input) but with the wind, it would be only when the wind is blowing.
Hmmm. Combine wind produced DC and solar PV DC into the same input and what would you get? Still would end up letting you use at most 50% of the available power though. Similar losses can happen with an off-grid system when your batteries are full.

Tell you what, you can take all of my blue sky ideas, do the research, and let us know the results. :-) I will let you take full credit for it.

PS: Just saw your last post. What do they mean by "completely sealed". That you can't get at the stator wires or that doing so will void the warranty?

pechan

Re: Xantrex XW MPPT 80-600 for wind application

I will check on that in the morning, I think that you will just void the warranty.

pechan

Re: Xantrex XW MPPT 80-600 for wind application

Here are a couple options that I have:

1) 380vdc turbine> Xantrex 600 charge controller> 48 volt battery bank.
2) 380vdc turbine> SMA windy boy> 48 volt battery charger> 48 volt battery bank.

What kind of problems should I expect if I went with option 1?
Option one would be preferred since it involves less investment.

Can I even do option 2? I am off grid with 2 Outback Radians, Would the windy boy sync with the outbacks on the AC side?

ChrisOlson

Re: Xantrex XW MPPT 80-600 for wind application

Again, not having worked with a Kestrel turbine, I can only guess. But with 120 poles and the turbine runs at 500 rpm or so at full output, the frequency will be quite high - in the neighborhood of 500 Hz. That could cause problems with the core in the transformer, and even with rectifiers, needing high speed diodes.

There is no gearing - they are direct drive. Assuming you wouldn't saturate the core in a transformer, it would require either three single phase transformers, or a delta three phase.

I suspect the generator windings are a parallel wye configuration. And that's why I wonder if it wouldn't be easier to investigate whether or not the windings could be rewired delta. That would drop the voltage by a division factor of 1.732.

Again, Hugh would be the one to ask. I'll bet he's seen the generator in one, probably knows the fellow who designed them (he's from Scotland), and would have a better idea of whether or not it can be done.
--
Chris

mike95490

Re: Xantrex XW MPPT 80-600 for wind application

At that AC frequency, you will need a "universal" military 400Hz - 50Hz, 3 phase transformer (unless it's a 5 phase system!) With that many poles, who knows how many phases come out the housing! But at full speed, assume it's 500Hz, and at average wind, maybe 100 Hz. A plain 60hz transformer will NOT work.

pechan

Re: Xantrex XW MPPT 80-600 for wind application

I think I may have found a solution:

Kestrel 3000 watt 380VDC> 380 VDC Voltage Limiter> Powerone Aurora 3.6kw wind inverter> AC coupled with my Outback Radian> Radian charges batteries.> AC dump load when batteries full.

The only thing I need to find out is if the outback AC power will trick the gridtie Aurora into staying on, if not I will have to disable the anti-islanding in the Aurora.
I read on another forum:
"Then there's "advanced" mode. This requires a pass-code that's different for each inverter, based on its serial number. Power-One usually will not supply that code, since it allows one to make changes that violate the certification requirements, for example, you can switch off anti-islanding in there. Advanced mode is not very useful, the parameters in there just are not things one normally needs to change. The only time we use it is when multiple wind inverters are connected in parallel, behind isolation transformers, with DC supplied from the same wind turbine. In that case a change is needed to make the inverters work."

I will call Power-one tomorrow and find out if the Radian will keep their inverter on, If not I will see if they will give me the password to disable anti-Islanding.

I did take a look at the Wind Turbine and you can access the insides, but I would rather not take it all apart If I don't have too, the other problem with bypassing the internal rectifier would be the slip rings, I assume that it would only be a double ring not the 3 rings needed for 3 phase.

more to come.

BB.

Re: Xantrex XW MPPT 80-600 for wind application

Just out of curiosity--What is it you expect to happen when anti-islanding is disabled.

As I understand (my educated guesses), modern GT Inverters operate in an entirely different mode than a standard Off Grid AC inverter.

Islanding detection is usually pretty much just the GT inverter measuring the voltage (~208 to 264 VAC, 60 Hz +/- 0.5 Hz or so)--If the AC mains are not at that voltage/frequency, then what should the GT inverter do (they cannot regulate voltage/frequency in GT mode--GT Inverters slave to the AC Line power and cannot do anything if there is no 240 VAC/60 Hz sine wave--Unlike older GT inverters that may 'sync' with the AC main and can operate very nicely without utility power).

GT Inverters probably need a TSW AC OG Inverter to "qualify" the AC mains power. Some GT inverters (German safety requirements) may also "test" the AC line impedance (i.e., make sure the AC power line is solid from the home to the distribution network). In the US, GT inverters now require a Neutral connection (they measure both Line to Line and Line to neutral voltages).

I know that at least one model of Outback inverter can be AC Coupled with a GT inverter--But I do not know which model(s) are known to work properly (or not).

The other issue is how you will regulate battery charging voltage/bulk/float/etc... Some new OG inverters (Xantrex, Magnum, SMA) can natively control AC Coupled charging--So the installation will be dependent on products chosen.

-Bill

ChrisOlson

Re: Xantrex XW MPPT 80-600 for wind application

BB. wrote: »

GT Inverters probably need a TSW AC OG Inverter to "qualify" the AC mains power.

Yes - I already tried that here once - building a "mini-grid" - with my Jake 23-10 that I rebuilt, with the old Jacobs GT split-phase inverter with a choke. I backed the governor springs off to limit the output of the machine to around 5 kW but it didn't work. It spent more time off-line than working, with the turbine spinning up against the governor not doing anything. The windings in high voltage GT turbines are too light to use them for battery charging, usually. I tried that too, but the Jake's Fidelity 12-lead generator was only good for 60 amps and I could get easily get more than that out of one of my own purpose-built battery charging turbines.

So in the end I gave up on it. It's possible it might work with the Aurora, I don't know. Rob Beckers would be the one to ask about that, as he probably has more experience with those inverters, and how to set them up, than anybody I know.
--
Chris

pechan

Re: Xantrex XW MPPT 80-600 for wind application

I did talk to Rob Beckers earlier this morning. He thought that the setup would work.

Also called Outback Power and this is what they told me:

I will work as follows:
Wire the Aurora into the main panel along with the Radian inverters, the loads will first use up availible watts from Aurora then the Radian will kick in if draw if more that available from the Aurora (3000 watt wind turbine). If loads are less than what the turbine is producing the Radian will use excess wattage to charge batteries, If batteries are full I will need to use dump load to not overcharge batteries.( Planning on doing this on the AC side.)

SEE Outback white paper here : http://www.outbackpower.com/pdf/tech_notes/AC_Coupling_WHT_Paper.pdf Bottom of page 3 is basically what I am doing, just with a turbine not solar panels, also the white paper shows a SkyStream turbine in an off grid application.

Called Power One: They said that it should work but they do not support the application and I would be on my own ( no surprise there).

I should not need to disable the anti-islanding because the radians will provide the "grid".

ChrisOlson

Re: Xantrex XW MPPT 80-600 for wind application

pechan wrote: »

I did talk to Rob Beckers earlier this morning. He thought that the setup would work.

Yes, I remember discussing this with Rob some time back when I was trying it with the Jake. I think the trouble was with my inverters at the time - SW Plus units. They do not like being backfed from another AC source so they would error on overload and shut down. Having an inverter like the Radian that can AC Couple might make all the difference because the stability of your "mini-grid" is paramount to keeping the GT online.

Rob also has some neat methods to use up your excess AC power using Omron voltage-sensing relays, IIRC. But I don't remember all the details on that.
--
Chris

gww1

Re: Xantrex XW MPPT 80-600 for wind application

Pechan
Thanks for posting the white paper link.
gww