Avancis solar panels

Tooltime
Tooltime Solar Expert Posts: 45 ✭✭
I found locally 120 watt Avancis PowerMax panels for $110 a piece. http://www.swt-solar.de/en/solar-energy/modules/avancis/avancis-cis. They are brand new. Seams like a good price. I Kind of thought that I wanted multicrystalline panels living in Michigan. These appear to be "CIS"

Any input would be great,

Tom

Comments

  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Avancis solar panels

    off hand the physical size will be much larger than crystalline types by up to 2x larger. the warranty is smaller than most others currently. finally the crystalline types can be found cheaper than what you are paying for these. being local you may forgo shipping charges, but you may be subjected to state taxes in many states. i'm not impressed with the deal.
  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    Re: Avancis solar panels

    I've been looking at expanding my system with CIS panels because they apparently do slightly better than crystalline types in cloudy weather. They're typically used where:
    a) space isn't an issue, because they're less efficient than crystalline so need more area for the same W.
    b) orientation isn't optimal, e.g. north, east or west or flat roofs.

    I can't find much hard data or tests to prove their performance in cloudy weather, the closest I could find was this study done in the UK: http://www.eci.ox.ac.uk/research/energy/downloads/pv-inthe-uk.pdf page 13 shows a siemens CIS panel producing about 20% more over a year than the crystallines.

    Reading some of the German solar forums where users have installed Avancis and other CIS panels, the results aren't that great for total kWh over the year, but that they do produce a bit more in cloudy weather. So if you're after maximum kWh over the whole year and you have good sun and a south facing roof, then poly's are better.
    But if you're off-grid then these could be interesting. That price is a bit expensive, you could also try looking for Miasole panels, they're a similar but not identical technology (CIGS) and since they're US made I'd imagine they're a better price.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Avancis solar panels

    One the questions I always have is that Thin Film panels tend to produce >20% more power in the first 6 months of their life--Then they "stabilize" to rated power output after that time period.

    So, from a "spec." point of view, they produce over rated power for the first few months of life and "age" quickly to spec. Then they meet spec. (with standard aging against crystalline solar panels) for the rest of their life (as I understand the over all issue).

    So I take that "they work better in cloudy weather" with a grain of salt... Also, in my area, cloudy weather output can easily be 25% of my normal sunny output. If I get 10% more or 27.5% of output--it is not really a big number.

    In the end look at quality, price / watt, square footage/meters per kW (thin film usually require more area for same amount of output vs crystalline panels), and support. And put the cloudy weather performance down on the list of reasons to purchase.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    Re: Avancis solar panels
    BB. wrote: »
    One the questions I always have is that Thin Film panels tend to produce >20% more power in the first 6 months of their life--Then they "stabilize" to rated power output after that time period.

    So, from a "spec." point of view, they produce over rated power for the first few months of life and "age" quickly to spec. Then they meet spec. (with standard aging against crystalline solar panels) for the rest of their life (as I understand the over all issue).

    This initial aging of "thin film" panels (Staebler-Wronski effect) is only applicable to amorphous silicon thin film panels. CIS panels show almost the opposite effect in that they increase efficiency after "light soaking": http://www.bweurope.eu/Fotovoltaico/pdf/download/SolarFrontier/Effetto%20Light%20Soaking-1.pdf
    CIS and CIGS are also much more efficient than amorphous, e.g. the Avancis panels are at 12% efficiency, a far cry from the 6% of single junction amorphous.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Avancis solar panels

    Interesting. Learn something new every day. :D

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    Re: Avancis solar panels

    :) I'm not 100% sold on them over plain old poly, but they are interesting.
    This is what happens when you can't install a wind turbine, have to find your kicks in exotic PV panels ;)
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Avancis solar panels

    i have my doubts as to the usefulness of a slight increase in efficiency during cloudy times as they are less efficient compared to crystalline types to begin with. only true comparison might be to have pvs, one of each type, with identical stc ratings and aged say 1 year and then compare outputs into identical loads. if voltage and amp ratings on the pvs are different then the use of mppt controllers might possibly be employed to even the playing field some. the identical stc rating is necessary to show any variances in output under adverse conditions. the crystalline type will most likely be smaller in physical size for the same output which would raise another comparative question of will output during cloudy times be better on the crystalline type for the same physical area as roofs may be finite in area if one assumes the crystalline to be less efficient in the 1st place? in other words is any possible better efficiency of output during cloudy times able to overcome the initial lower efficiency non crystalline types have in the 1st place?
  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    Re: Avancis solar panels
    niel wrote: »
    i have my doubts as to the usefulness of a slight increase in efficiency during cloudy times as they are less efficient compared to crystalline types to begin with.

    The key variable in the comparison of the two types is the $/W, because you pay for Watts at STC and with the one type you might get more $/W under cloudy weather than the other.
    niel wrote: »
    will output during cloudy times be better on the crystalline type for the same physical area as roofs may be finite in area if one assumes the crystalline to be less efficient in the 1st place? in other words is any possible better efficiency of output during cloudy times able to overcome the initial lower efficiency non crystalline types have in the 1st place?

    I don't think so. The comparison only works for equal amounts of W installed, not for equal amounts of roof-space used. Filling a finite roof with 1kW of crystaline would mean filling it with 800W of CIS panels. I doubt that the low light performance of the CIS would be able to make up the difference.

    But if you installed 1kW of crystaline and 1kW of CIS, then you would see a low light improvement in the CIS. Price comparison for the two technologies is key, if the CIS are 10% more expensive than poly then even if you're chasing low light improvement and you have enough space, simply installing more poly would be the better bet. It's only when CIS is cheaper than poly that it starts to make sense.

    So instead of comparing 1kW of CIS with 1kW of poly, it's better to compare $1000 of CIS and $1000 of poly and then work out space requirements and low light efficiency gains.

    Over here, there are still some chinese poly panels that have escaped the new penalty and can be had at the old price of 0.70 USD/Watt. While there are offers on pallets of Avancis (CIS) and Miasole (CIGS) modules going for 0.44 USD/Watt. Price difference like that make them look quite attractive.
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Avancis solar panels
    stephendv wrote: »
    So instead of comparing 1kW of CIS with 1kW of poly, it's better to compare $1000 of CIS and $1000 of poly and then work out space requirements and low light efficiency gains.

    Over here, there are still some chinese poly panels that have escaped the new penalty and can be had at the old price of 0.70 USD/Watt. While there are offers on pallets of Avancis (CIS) and Miasole (CIGS) modules going for 0.44 USD/Watt. Price difference like that make them look quite attractive.

    Longevity is important too. Panels last for 25 years. So, 70 cents/W is 2.8 cents/W/year. If CIS lasts 10 years, 44 cents/W is 4.4 cents/W/year. So, for the fair comparison, you would need to install proportionally less CIS.
  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    Re: Avancis solar panels

    Yep, definitely. The guarantee varies by manufacturer, not so much technology. Avancis offers a 20 year guarantee, not so great. Miasole offers the standard 25 year 80%. Interestingly an amorphous silicon manufacturer, Schott, offers a 30 year 80% guarantee.