Washing Machine thread

CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
Because I can't remember where the question was asked we'll start a thread here for anyone who wants to run their washer through the K-A-W and come up with some numbers.

I finally did so and got these results:

Kenmore Extra Capacity Heavy Duty Model 10 40 30090
Outlet Voltage 117 down to 115 at times
Max Amps: 9.26
Max Watts: 1050
On Watts: 16 (activate water solenoids and timer)
Agitating/spinning Watts: 850

The power factor is a bit difficult to determine due to the nature of operation, but it's not as bad as one might suspect.

Still, a big power user. Almost 0.8 kW hour for a 'regular' load (approximately 45 minutes). If you use different settings you'll get different results I'm sure.
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Comments

  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Washing Machine thread

    I'll have to do that first chance. BTW, I did try it (my smaller sized roughly 3 year old Sears front loader) on the SureSine-300, worked perfectly until it was almost up to speed in spin mode, the Kill-A-Watt was showing roughly 450 watts, and off she went. lol There probably were some other small loads on the SureSine, but wouldn't have been much. In fill, wash, pump, everything but spin, it worked perfectly, just couldn't get up to full spin speed.
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Washing Machine thread

    Well "Coot" finally got it done today. Had a very large load, which takes more energy to lift up out of the water as it tumbles etc, and when it starts to spin with a large load of water in that large load of clothes, thus, this would be pretty much a worst cast wash.
    Sears front load, model 970C47062-00 (variable speed, inverter controlled 3 phase PM motor)
    Filling with one solenoid valve open: 10 watts; both valves open: 16 watts.
    Standby (operating timer/computer etc) while waiting for the next action to begin: 6 watts.
    Wash: varies depending on how the load is distributed and thus being tumbled; 80 watts to 170 watts, continuously varying, depending on load positioning and energy required to tumble it from moment to moment. And every 15 or 20 seconds, all action stops for about 5 seconds, then restarts in reverse rotation. During this pause, power is reduced to 6 watts.
    Pump out: Pumping full bore: 88 watts; after drum all but empty: 36 watts.
    Spin: With large load, quickly ramps up to 800 watts, but after about 15 seconds, as the worst of the water is thrown out of the clothes, it eases back to 400 watts.
    Set for Normal wash, this unit takes roughly 35 minutes start to finish.
    Total consumption from start to finish: 0.14 Kwh.
    Note: As hinted at, lighter loads would be easier to tumble etc, so consumption would be somewhat less. Might try with a lighter load some time and record the difference.
    Wayne
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Washing Machine thread

    Definitely an improvement in the agitation and spin cycles, Wayne. The over-all power consumption reduction that results is not to be dismissed. That half a kW hour per load will add up, especially with a family that's doing a lot of laundry.

    It'd take a long time before it would pay for itself with just us two and ten cent electric, though.
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Washing Machine thread

    It'd take a long time before it would pay for itself with just us two and ten cent electric, though.
    True, but combined with my second hand, at least 30 year old Top Load Sears that I'd kept repairing and finally it had a transmission failure, and my obsession with having all I possibly could, running off grid, it was what I had to do. I've been extremely happy with it and can even do a wash at night without taking the batteries down noticeably. And with that, I'm extremely happy! The other thing is, the old one used a ton of water in comparison, so the water pump did a lot of running too. The combination was too much for my system. But no more :D
    And yes, I was shocked to see the total consumption at only 0.14, only 140 watt hours! I still find it hard to believe, but when I consider the average consumption over time, it makes sense, just that it's way better than I had expected.
    That said, not all front loaders are the same. My Uncle got a newer, different model and he hates it. It's pre-programed to wash for almost a full hour before any of the rinse cycles begin. He calls it "the wearing out cycle" because he figures and I agree, it takes way too long to wash and is just wearing out his clothes. There is a way to cut the time, but it's complicated and has to be done for every wash. So he doesn't bother, he just grumbles about how much he hates it. So folks, the wash time, and if you can easily change it for lightly soiled clothes, is definitely something that should be questioned by anyone considering a purchase.
  • Volvo FarmerVolvo Farmer Solar Expert Posts: 209 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Washing Machine thread

    Having spoken with a few of the salespeople at Sears, Home Depot, and Lowes, I'm not so sure that these people are very knowledgeable about the customization of wash cycles on the products they are selling. They can tell you if you can get it in red, black or gray though. :)

    BTW, both you fellows have posted incorrect or incomplete Sears model numbers. If you cant find your machine here http://www.searspartsdirect.com/partsdirect/index.action, the number is incorrect.

    I'm going to attempt to post some numbers in this thread as time allows. I'm testing a couple washers a week for resale and have seen just about one of everything come through my shop in the last few years. I have a KAW right on the shelf, it would be pretty easy to do some testing.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Washing Machine thread

    Wayne and I are both in Canada; our model numbers may not match or appear on any list of US equipment. Not just for washing machines either. It's sometimes very weird the differences between the two countries. For instance you guys still have pennies; we don't, as of today. :cry:
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Washing Machine thread
    Having spoken with a few of the salespeople at Sears, Home Depot, and Lowes, I'm not so sure that these people are very knowledgeable about the customization of wash cycles on the products they are selling. They can tell you if you can get it in red, black or gray though. :)

    BTW, both you fellows have posted incorrect or incomplete Sears model numbers. If you cant find your machine here http://www.searspartsdirect.com/partsdirect/index.action, the number is incorrect.

    I'm going to attempt to post some numbers in this thread as time allows. I'm testing a couple washers a week for resale and have seen just about one of everything come through my shop in the last few years. I have a KAW right on the shelf, it would be pretty easy to do some testing.

    Totally agree re Sears sales people not knowing their products.
    Re model #'s Wondering if you may be located in USA? We're in Canada. Sears has a thing about changing model numbers to confuse people looking for parts. I once worked for a company that supplied product to sears. Sears demanded we remove the proper model # and in it's place put a Sears #. Sears then refused to provide a cross reference to the manufacturers #, thus forcing customers to go to Sears for parts.
    Just rechecked my # and it is as listed on the name plate.
    Sears Canada Inc
    Made in USA / Fabrique Au E.U.
    Model 907-C47062-00
    Serial XC72403608
    06/07
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Washing Machine thread
    I once worked for a company that supplied product to sears.

    Well there's a coincidence! Moi aussi! :D
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Washing Machine thread
    Well there's a coincidence! Moi aussi! :D
    Hahaha Well the world can be a small place sometimes, even if we are on opposite sides of the continent. :D Sanyo.
  • NorthGuyNorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,925
    Re: Washing Machine thread

    Discovered an interesting feature in my washing machine. My wife wanted to try different cycles, and while she was doing that I noticed that our energy consumption went up by about 1kW. Turns out that the machine has a built-in electric heating element. If it thinks that the hot water is not hot enough, it turns it on. And it's really unpredicatable. The energy consumed by the heating element is about 1kW. We had to confine our use to cold cycles for now.
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,311 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Washing Machine thread

    northguy,
    i don't know if you may have mentioned the washer you have previously, but let us know here too.
  • solarvicsolarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭
    Re: Washing Machine thread

    Northguy, A couple hints. I have an LG frontloader and SANITARY is only cycle that uses the heater in the washer. I use that cycle only for underwear. Since washer is closet to waterheater, I run a small amount of hot water at the sink faucet to make sure that the water that goes to washer is hot. :Dsolarvic:D
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Washing Machine thread

    Some washers these days are being touted with steam cycles.

    They ought to come with warning labels about how much power they waste.
  • NorthGuyNorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,925
    Re: Washing Machine thread

    My washer is Samsung WF350AN.

    That's right. I discovered the heater on "Sanitize" cycle.

    However, it may go on during a regular "Warm" cycle. I think it happens when it thinks that the water is not warm enough.

    Solarvic,

    Thank you for the suggestion. I think that would help. Unfortunately, there's 12 feet 1/2 pipe run dedicated to washer without any faucets. May be I need to install a re-circulating pump. On the other hand our "hot" water is not that hot. Tankless water heater only heats it to 118 F. That may not warm enough for the washer.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,769 admin
    Re: Washing Machine thread

    There is a practice in the hard core washing forums (nothing like the hard core solar RE forums :roll::p) that with some soaps (detergents) that you start with warm water for the "bio" enzymes to work and raise the temperatures for the soaps/detergents to function (high temperatures set organic/protein stains--which the Bio Ezymes work at lower temperatures and the chemical cleaners work better in hot water). So having a heater in the washer allows both sides of the "soaps" to work optimally.

    Whether that is a waste of money or not--Let others decide that.

    -Bill "everything goes in warm" B.
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • solarvicsolarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭
    Re: Washing Machine thread

    By the time you get the cold water cleared from the waterline you probably have the amount of water you need and never get hot water. Maybe you could put an extra hot water faucet next to the washer and draw off enough water till you get hot water at the washer. Been thinking of doing that myself. solarvic
  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,121 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Washing Machine thread
    solarvic wrote: »
    By the time you get the cold water cleared from the waterline you probably have the amount of water you need and never get hot water. Maybe you could put an extra hot water faucet next to the washer and draw off enough water till you get hot water at the washer. Been thinking of doing that myself. solarvic

    Interesting strategies apply:
    If the water heater is "cheap", such as natural gas or solar thermal, then you can afford to waste the hot water which will be left in the pipe after the cycle is over and so drawing water until it gets hot is optimal. It will also result in a faster cycle since the machine will not have to spend time heating the water.
    If the water heater is also electric, then the optimal strategy for cost is to run only cold water to the washer, making it, in effect, a point-of-use on-demand heater and avoiding heat loss in the piping from a storage type heater. But it will make the cycle last much longer.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • NorthGuyNorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,925
    Re: Washing Machine thread
    solarvic wrote: »
    By the time you get the cold water cleared from the waterline you probably have the amount of water you need and never get hot water. Maybe you could put an extra hot water faucet next to the washer and draw off enough water till you get hot water at the washer. Been thinking of doing that myself. solarvic

    You can try to use a recirculating pump. You push a button and it quickly pushes water from the hot pipe into the cold pipe. You can get hot water in few seconds. There are some models that react on motion, so you get hot water as soon as you approach it, but this doesn't look very energy efficient to me.
  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,121 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Washing Machine thread
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    You can try to use a recirculating pump. You push a button and it quickly pushes water from the hot pipe into the cold pipe. You can get hot water in few seconds. ... but this doesn't look very energy efficient to me.

    If you are in a situation where saving water is more important than saving energy, it is a winner, and you do not need to run an additional return water line. It uses less heat than a continuous or switched recirculating pump with a return line too. But having the heat source close to point of use is even better if you can manage it.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • NorthGuyNorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,925
    Re: Washing Machine thread
    inetdog wrote: »
    If you are in a situation where saving water is more important than saving energy, it is a winner, and you do not need to run an additional return water line. It uses less heat than a continuous or switched recirculating pump with a return line too. But having the heat source close to point of use is even better if you can manage it.

    If moving hot water into a washer stops the washer from using its heating element, you conserve electric power. In return, you lose some energy in water heater (which is, hopefully, gas energy). And you do not use any water.

    That's the same as if you just had a faucet, except it saves water and also saves time.

    If you don't have a faucet, then it's much easier to install a pump. I think you may even get a model that you can install directly on washer hoses. Installing faucet would require some sort of drain.
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Washing Machine thread

    Really surprised that on a forum that so emphasizes energy efficiency, no one has brought up washing clothes in cold water. Many folks, including myself do so, and with excellent results. For all normal washes, hot water provides no advantage beyond adding to the bank account of the energy provider. The clothes come out just as clean, unless perhaps heavily soiled with grease or engine oil. There was a time when anyone who didn't literally boil their clothes in a big tub on the old wood stove like my great grandmother did, was considered to be disgustingly unclean. That's obviously no longer the case. Same thing goes for using hot water in washing machines as people are learning hot water is not necessary in the vast majority of cases. Lukewarm rather than ice cold water does help many detergents work better, but unless your water is ice cold, even that is not usually needed. The supposed need for hot water is for the most part a myth, and these steam-clean machines are sales gimmicks that promote and play on peoples fears, so as to up-sell the customer. There are of course exceptions where really hot water may be needed, but that need is definitely not the norm.
  • Ralph DayRalph Day Solar Expert Posts: 871 ✭✭✭
    Re: Washing Machine thread

    Here here Wayne. I've used cold wash for years with no complaints. My washer has 2 options for hot,warmand cold. They are straight cold, straight hot and a proportioned mix for warm, and a thermostatically controlled temp for cold warm and hot...the cold is mixed with hot for a 70F temp, not sure what the other temps are, but they are controlled by the machine, not heated by it. And it has click and clunk controls, not led readouts and soft touch buttons (clock type timers and relays like my mother's machines in the dark ages. I even remember getting my fingers stuck in the rollers of the earliest one I can remember).

    Drying can be just as efficient using lines in the wood heated basement or a circle hanger outside. Our dryer is just a shelf for holding the laundry detergent and vinegar now. Use vinegar instead of softener...it's not stinky and supposedly helps get all the soap residue out of the load. When riding my bike down the road I can tell if the neighbours are doing laundry by the stench of dryer sheets wafting accross the road, gack!

    Ral;ph
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Washing Machine thread
    Ralph Day wrote: »
    Here here Wayne. I've used cold wash for years with no complaints. My washer has 2 options for hot,warmand cold. They are straight cold, straight hot and a proportioned mix for warm, and a thermostatically controlled temp for cold warm and hot...the cold is mixed with hot for a 70F temp, not sure what the other temps are, but they are controlled by the machine, not heated by it. And it has click and clunk controls, not led readouts and soft touch buttons (clock type timers and relays like my mother's machines in the dark ages. I even remember getting my fingers stuck in the rollers of the earliest one I can remember).

    Drying can be just as efficient using lines in the wood heated basement or a circle hanger outside. Our dryer is just a shelf for holding the laundry detergent and vinegar now. Use vinegar instead of softener...it's not stinky and supposedly helps get all the soap residue out of the load. When riding my bike down the road I can tell if the neighbours are doing laundry by the stench of dryer sheets wafting accross the road, gack!

    Ral;ph

    Oh Ralph! You're really telling it like it is! My washer also has that 70* feature and that I do use, as my cold water, especially in winter, is ice cold, so it does help the detergent work. Beyond that, it's cold, cold, cold! Yes, that pole by the wood stove in the basement is my winter dryer, and in summer, it's a good old fashioned outdoor clothes line. After using my electric dryer as a shelf for over ten years, I gave it away and never regretted the act. My clothes are clean, extremely fresh smelling after drying on the outside line, and they last far, far longer than when I used to bake them and wear them out in the electric clothes dryer.
  • NorthGuyNorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,925
    Re: Washing Machine thread

    My wife always uses cold cycles. She told me that she doesn't need warm cycles at all. In fact, she always used cold cycles and she even buy special detergents for that. I didn't know that. We would never know that the heating element existed if she didn't try the sanitizing cycle.

    Regardless, I feel that it would be better if the washing machine could've been programmed to use supplied hot water as is, without trying to use heating element.
  • SkippySkippy Solar Expert Posts: 300 ✭✭
    Re: Washing Machine thread

    Thanks for starting up this thread, as I have been wondering how big of an inverter too use on my old top loader.

    I really like the power figures found on the modern front loaders, but, I also have a rain recycling system that pumps the water into the top of the top loader by way of a 1 inch pipe hung over the side. Just by taking the washing machine off the water bill, saves me about 25 $ every 3 months, or 100 $ a year. I figure in 3 years it will pay for itself. . . (lots of pipe and fittings) . So if I were to switch to a front loader, it would be back onto the water mains, and the water barrels would be scrap. . . .

    Front loader or top loader . . . hmmm . . . hope my old top loader keeps going for now, won't decide until it dies :p

    Oh, and the snow melting off my roof also goes into the barrels - yup - I use cold water.
    2 - 255W PV - Tristar 45 MPPT CC / 3 - 110W PV -wired for 36V- 24V Sunsaver MPPT CC / midnite bat. monitor.
    1 KW PSW inverter 24V / 2.5 KW MSW inverter-24V ~ 105 AHR battery.
    3 ton GSHP.- 100 gallon warm water storage / house heat - radiant floor / rad
    Apricus solar water heater with Tempra 12 on demand for backup.
    9 -220W PV - net meter - Enphase inverters and internet reporting system.
    420 Gallon rain water system for laundry.***  6" Rocket Mass Heater with 10' bed for workshop heat.
    Current project is drawing up plans for a below grade Hobbit / underground home.
  • SkippySkippy Solar Expert Posts: 300 ✭✭
    Re: Washing Machine thread

    Well, I have been kinda frustrated at not being able to run my washer off my k.o.w meter .... so, I thought I would try running it half way thru - say with a small load - just at the end of the spin cycle ( no water in it) - and see what happens - and it worked ! So then I thought, well, maybe, since the machine is warmed up, it won't draw as much as when I tried to start it cold, so I threw in another load, and tried it - right after the first load, and it worked as well. As soon as the machine started, the meter beeped and went blank again, but this time, after a couple of seconds - it came back on and worked. If I tried that with a cold machine, it would beep, and not come on again (overload) . . . go figure.

    So here are the numbers for my old top loading beastie, including running the seperate water pump in the basement for filling :

    Small load of laundry :

    Start : fill with water 870 - 890 watts - 1 min
    wash - surges to 1100 watts then drops to 408 - 438 watts for 12 min.
    spin - surges at 600 watts then progressively drops to 360 as the water goes out and it picks up speed - 2 min
    fill - same as above.
    rinse - 390 to 410 watts - 2 min
    final spin - surges to 1000 watts, and progressively drops to 375 watts - 4 min.

    I did not check the time on the meter, but pushing the kwh button gives me a number of 0.18 kwh

    Since the thing worked the first time, I put a large load thru, looks like the only thing that changes is the amount of water in the machine - same times and cycles :

    .21 kwh
    28 min.

    So, when the machine is cold, it will draw just enough extra power to overload and kill my meter. Also, when the machine is idle, it draws 2 watts, (waiting to fill ) - filling the washing machine with the large pump (with the 1" pipe) is alot faster than the house water line (1/2 " pipe).

    You guys are right, without those numbers, I was guessing in the dark about how much power I needed. . . I feel alot better knowing what my consumption is.

    IT WORKS ! 8)
    2 - 255W PV - Tristar 45 MPPT CC / 3 - 110W PV -wired for 36V- 24V Sunsaver MPPT CC / midnite bat. monitor.
    1 KW PSW inverter 24V / 2.5 KW MSW inverter-24V ~ 105 AHR battery.
    3 ton GSHP.- 100 gallon warm water storage / house heat - radiant floor / rad
    Apricus solar water heater with Tempra 12 on demand for backup.
    9 -220W PV - net meter - Enphase inverters and internet reporting system.
    420 Gallon rain water system for laundry.***  6" Rocket Mass Heater with 10' bed for workshop heat.
    Current project is drawing up plans for a below grade Hobbit / underground home.
  • vtmapsvtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Washing Machine thread
    Skippy wrote: »
    So here are the numbers for my old top loading beastie, including running the seperate water pump in the basement for filling :

    Small load of laundry :

    Start : fill with water 870 - 890 watts - 1 min
    wash - surges to 1100 watts then drops to 408 - 438 watts for 12 min.
    spin - surges at 600 watts then progressively drops to 360 as the water goes out and it picks up speed - 2 min
    fill - same as above.
    rinse - 390 to 410 watts - 2 min
    final spin - surges to 1000 watts, and progressively drops to 375 watts - 4 min.

    <snip>

    Also, when the machine is idle, it draws 2 watts, (waiting to fill ) - filling the washing machine with the large pump (with the 1" pipe) is alot faster than the house water line (1/2 " pipe).

    I presume the 870-890 watts to start the wash is the large pump, not the washer. That pump shouldn't be counted if you are trying to compare your washer to the others described in this thread.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • SkippySkippy Solar Expert Posts: 300 ✭✭
    Re: Washing Machine thread

    Your right.

    My numbers are slightly messed up then, since they include filling the machine twice. . . so for the number crunchers out there, minus 890 watts for 2 minutes.

    Maybe next week, I will be able to do a load of laundry with tap water, since my rain barrels are almost empty, and everything is still frozen.

    Common spring !
    2 - 255W PV - Tristar 45 MPPT CC / 3 - 110W PV -wired for 36V- 24V Sunsaver MPPT CC / midnite bat. monitor.
    1 KW PSW inverter 24V / 2.5 KW MSW inverter-24V ~ 105 AHR battery.
    3 ton GSHP.- 100 gallon warm water storage / house heat - radiant floor / rad
    Apricus solar water heater with Tempra 12 on demand for backup.
    9 -220W PV - net meter - Enphase inverters and internet reporting system.
    420 Gallon rain water system for laundry.***  6" Rocket Mass Heater with 10' bed for workshop heat.
    Current project is drawing up plans for a below grade Hobbit / underground home.
  • NorthGuyNorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,925
    Re: Washing Machine thread

    I finally got my new KaW meter in the mail and measured the consumption of what my wife told me was a typical (cold) cycle:

    Washer Samsung WF350AN (front loader) - 0.07kWh/cycle. That's a huge improvement over top-loader (0.33kWh/cycle)
    Dryer Samsung DV350AGP - 0.15kWh/cycle.
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Washing Machine thread
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    I finally got my new KaW meter in the mail and measured the consumption of what my wife told me was a typical (cold) cycle:

    Washer Samsung WF350AN (front loader) - 0.07kWh/cycle. That's a huge improvement over top-loader (0.33kWh/cycle)
    Dryer Samsung DV350AGP - 0.15kWh/cycle.
    Awesome! And that's not taking into consideration the extra running of the water pump to fill the top loader :)
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