Your system, after you're gone...

vtmaps

A friend of mine just died unexpectedly at age 62. He has been off grid for 35 years (Heart inverter and 360 watts of mismatched panels). His widow is (relative to most of us) clueless about their system. Of course, I will try to help her keep the system running.

Its got me thinking about my own situation. My wife can read the SOC on the trimetric and make reasonable decisions about when to start the generator or when to do laundry. But that's about it. I suppose she could be trained to check SG and water the batteries (she has no interest at this time).

She has many talents and aptitudes, but very little understanding of math, science, computers, or electronics. There's no way she's ever going to understand the Outback programming manuals or troubleshoot a problem.

Makes me wonder how she could manage the system when I'm gone...

--vtMaps

waynefromnscanada

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

I fear that like most of us with off grid systems, they will quickly run into problems, like a pet that depends on us for their daily care, and soon become disabled. Those left behind, if indeed there is anyone left behind, will leave it all, not even knowing how to shut the system down, and move on to a new life elsewhere. Sad but true. It saddens me that my system will be left to nature, and like us, return to the earth from whence it came, no one understanding, appreciating, or even wanting to know anything about it. Weird turn of events, but the way of life.
We must be a strange lot.

Cariboocoot

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

This is an issue that definitely strikes home. When I'm dead the kids will inherit the place. One of them is a robotics engineer, the other a civil engineer. Yet I know neither one of them understands how it works. My wife has suggested I write a manual for it. There's already manuals for the Outback inverter & charge controller; more paper on how it all works together would be daunting. And yet there is a need. Look at how much forum space goes to explaining the basics; this stuff is complicated and no way around it. When I look at any one person's system that I've helped with from beginning to end it does involve a lot of information and instruction.

Maybe I should instruct the kids now, but they've never listened to me yet. That's the reason why one set of batteries got kille; someone on their vacation ignored the "run the generator when" instructions. Maybe I'll start with the grandkids; they sometimes listen to me.

As for the other systems I've helped save, they become what Douglas Adams called "SEP": Someone Else's Problem.

All things considered, I really should get on this. Thanks for the wake-up call VT.

Photowhit

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

Perhaps I do more than I think, but also I have over built systems with more capacity than is needed. I really don't have a problem with telling someone to water the batteries with distilled water and not run the batteries down below 70% with out being aware that they need to fully charge before heavy use. I just don't see it as a big deal. It may be interesting as I'm likely to sell my off grid cabin this summer. I will write a small summary of how to take care of the system, the cabin is located in a camping community where I work, so I'll have access to (and they me) the people I sell it to. Of course if we have a summer like last summer and they try to run the AC around the clock it won't last long...

bmet

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

When you prepare your summary, be sure to include this forum.

Rngr275

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

bmet wrote: »

When you prepare your summary, be sure to include this forum.

This is very good advice!

icarus

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

I have soup to nuts instructions on my system for the (very) occasional visitor to my place if I am not there. Even given that they can screw it up! Last summer I was away for a while with someone staying in the house. They couldn't figure out why they couldn' t keep the batteries above 75% eve running the genny several hours a day. It turns out that they had multiple wall warts plugged in 24/7 drawing the batteries, and the genny breaker was off, so tht all they were doing was burning fuel!

It is like a pet that one has to tend to.

Tony

plongson

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

I too have given this great consideration. I worry and wonder if my efforts would pull my family through but my son (31yr old) has actually used the place for a weekend with his family with great success. He's really SHARP and has a real interest in the system.

Nonetheless, I have built in as much automation as possible but it still needs a "handyman" to check batteries etc. Short term, it'd be OK but long term, it would probaly fall apart with no one committed to it's success.

Most people are either clueless, just plain dumb or don't give a $hit...

Eric L

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

I have soup to nuts instructions on my system for the (very) occasional visitor to my place if I am not there. Even given that they can screw it up!

That's the thing; no matter how carefully you assemble and explain everything, it's only a matter of time before something unexpected happens, and then the system needs someone who knows how it's wired and how it works in order to fix it.

Unless our survivors are the type of person that want to learn how these things work, we have to hope/expect that, after our demise, our survivors will be smart enough to get someone in who is knowledgeable about solar equipment (as they likely will be). That knowledgeable person will identify what they think is worth keeping in the system, and then either sell it off or (if they want to keep it together), connect the good bits in a way that THEY understand and can troubleshoot going forward.

PhilS

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

A few years ago I was on a hunting trip in a remote area (no cell phone reception). At that time it was possible to overload one of my three inverters (the appliance one) and DW did, and it shut down. Mainly because it was the one powering the fridge, she was concerned and called an auto-mechanic friend for help. After some looking, he finally noticed the little red light on the Magnum remote (mounted away from the inverter and he initially thought it was a radio), reset it and all was fine. I've since added the second Magnum w/remote so that exact situation won't happen again BUT...

... it was the 'nudge' I needed to make an Owner/operator manual for our home. I did a simple page or two for each system with mainly "normal operation" and "problems" and what to do. I did the pages in Word and included pictures. I can easily replace a page if I modify or replace a system. It's all in a binder in a known location for DW and our occasional housesitters.

The pages (saved in My Documents too) are:

Water pressure
Water pressure backup
Water pump indicators
Water pressure switches (one pressure switch failed the last day of a trip and the housesitters didn't know how to make the backup operate)
Water heater
Well pumping
Icemaker supply (comes out of its own jug with its own pump and pressure tank)
Main power
Lights, electronics and air conditioning
Fuses and breakers
Auxillary battery charger


Now, having listed the pages I've done, I realize I need to add "Generator operation" and "Backup generator operation". I should also add a page or two for battery watering and maintenance... something important if I'm suddenly gone (I'm over 60).

I'll also add info on this forum in that binder... with instructions to mention my username and ask questions on anything I didn't cover.

And yes, I've got a 6 yr old grandkid that I expect will be the best choice for some more detailed instruction in a few years.

Phil

BB.

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

Nobody truly "owns" their off grid systems until they have had to pay for one or two replacement battery banks (out of their own pocket) from some sort of "oops" situation and/or have to pay for those high fuel charges for the backup genset. That is the beginning of being "schooled".

-Bill

peakbagger

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

In my area there are two older ladies that used to own a solar off grid home in the southern part of the state. They had bought the home from someone else who had designed and installed a home brew system. Not sure where the original owner went but these ladies had all sort of problems and ended up paying a lot of money to folks to try to keep the system running. They are nice folks but definitively not technically astute. They eventually got out of the house and moved up to my area where they are tireless advocates in telling anyone who will listen that PV is big waste of money. They are advocates of low energy retrofits on existing homes, which is good but unfortunately one of their selling points is why waste money on grid tie solar when energy retrofits are better. NH happens to have about a 4 year payback on grid tied PV so its competitive with some of the retrofits they encourage like window replacements (which despite sounding attractive rarely pay back in a rapid period)

I frequently see used solar equipment on craiglist from VT where someone bought a house and is selling the equipment as they cant figure out how to run it. I have also run into a few ex wives of off gridders and they usually look back fondly to the day the panels got ripped down off the house after the divorce.

I think my heating system would definitely go out of service if I ever sell my place as its definitely not a "set a thermostat and forget it system". All the controls are set up so that when the breaker is turned off on the wood boiler, that the oil fired system goes back to normal operation. Someday I will label all the valves and write a manual.

waynefromnscanada

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

peakbagger wrote: »

They eventually got out of the house and moved up to my area where they are tireless advocates in telling anyone who will listen that PV is big waste of money. .

WOW! Didn't anyone explain to them that all they need do is stick $300, panel on the roof and all their electricity problems would be a thing of the past?

basewindow

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

Funny this should be mentioned, even though I don't 'live' off grid my holiday/escape cabin is. It was one of the first things I did, to produce a 'Manual' on how things worked up there. Like others I did it in 'Word' with pictures etc.
It's not only of benifit to others who occasionally come up and stay when I'm not there but also a reminder to myself for various things, such as the entire wiring diagram, including which walls or rood space the wires run through.
Unusual things, like the use of the 'composting toilet'. I have included the 'official manual' to every item I have in the rear, from the Panels, Reg, Batteries, generator, right down to the simple pour in, pour out, water purifier.
The 'Manual' I wrote is really a brief summary of those wierd things mounted on the wall, ie: the CC, Battery monitor and breaker box etc and what they do. I explained things like, what breakers should be 'on' or 'off' or what a red flashing light on the CC might mean or what appliances are suitable for use with the Inverter, and at the bottom of each summary a very clear 'Ring me if you don't understand anything.'
I did it because I knew friends would want to come up sometime when I'm not there. When I started down this road it was all very unusual to say the least, and if had I just turned up a someones 'Off Grid' place I would have had no idea!
It was actually quite fun writing the manual and being able to change it as I added things or purchased new things, like when I bought a old caravan (trailer?) renovated it and connected it to the Solar System so it to could have lights and a TV.
Having said all that, my brother in law still managed to plug the 1200w vacuum into my 600w Inverter. It did quite clearly say in the manual if you want to use the vacuum use the generator only..... but I supose you would actually have to read the manual to know that...
Like others have said my wife doesn't really have great any interest in it, except that there is light when she switches on the light and there is water coming out of the tap (Hot or Cold). She knows that you must conserve power and water etc, and that the power comes from the panels into the batter and not to use the vacuum with the inverter but thats about it. She just doesn't have an interest in the technical side of things. She does however like to decorate the place and has a fixation with cushions and colour co-ordinating things, something I can't seem to do, even with clothes apparently...

Volvo Farmer

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

I have also thought about this scenario, and came to the conclusion that the best thing to do was to get a life insurance policy with enough benefits to bring in the grid should I meet an untimely demise. Still haven't talked to that agent yet, but I would not want my DW to suffer trying to keep this off grid system going. It is my play thing and she has neither the desire nor the technical skills to maintain it.

NorthGuy

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

Probably wishful thinking, but I'd like to think that once I'm gone everything will be working well for a long time - clean water, heat, plenty of electric power ...

Photowhit

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

PhilS wrote: »

I've got a 6 yr old grandkid that I expect will be the best choice...

I'm finally getting a smart phone, I hope it comes with a 6 yr old to help me figure it out! Guess it's the 'way of the world' now... I had my first interaction with Windoz 8 the other day, programs are now 'apps' and every thing is icon based......aaarrrrggghhh!

Cariboocoot

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

Photowhit wrote: »

I'm finally getting a smart phone, I hope it comes with a 6 yr old to help me figure it out! Guess it's the 'way of the world' now... I had my first interaction with Windoz 8 the other day, programs are now 'apps' and every thing is icon based......aaarrrrggghhh!

Watch out if you get the message "All Your Apps Are Belong To Us".

waynefromnscanada

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

NorthGuy wrote: »

Probably wishful thinking, but I'd like to think that once I'm gone everything will be working well for a long time - clean water, heat, plenty of electric power ...

I'm tempted t say "dream on", but hopefully your system will do better than mine. First to go down would be the pico-hydro when the intake screen plugs off, followed by the little lake going dry from not tending the gate. Then if all went well, the next would be the batteries converting to dry plates mode. What, they're not maintenance free? Followed by: You mean solar panels don't work in the vertical position when the summer sun is high overhead? How do we fix that? But by then, at least one of the inverters would have kicked off, requiring a reboot. What's an inverter? Seriously, no one around here would have a clue
When I'm gone, it's gone. Such a shame, but I guess it's the way of life.

inetdog

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

When I'm gone, it's gone. Such a shame, but I guess it's the way of life.

And what would happen to your iconic (literally) pump?

BB.

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

Wayne is probably the only person in the world running full size fridge/freezers off of a 300 Watt TSW MorningStar inverter too. That will be another lost technology...

-Bill

unicornio

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

exciting thread! ...;-)

would be a good idea to write a good manual well documented and label all the components and all that, but it does take a little geeks like us to keep things in good condition ... normal people should hire a local maintenance service to prevent lost and damaged batteries ...

Personally, when I die I do not think I should worry much the status of my power plant, or at least I hope it...

after all, for that I die, to stop worrying about everything forever! ...
we worry when we are living even to what will happen when we die! ... hehehehe

BB. wrote: »

Wayne is probably the only person in the world running full size fridge/freezers off of a 300 Watt TSW MorningStar inverter too. That will be another lost technology...

This is somewhat surprising ... will have to document everything very well, and yet, when it are see from another person, it can not believe it! ...;-)

Cariboocoot

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

The big problem of course is that each off-grid system is unique. It has to be in order to meet the needs of the particular use at the specific location. Gird power, and to a lesser extend a grid-tie system, is standard in that you have a 240 VAC split phase feed to a house that has a 100, 200, et cetera Amp service. All off-the-shelf, wired to code (we hope), and to a large degree interchangeable.

We do see this from time-to-time on the forum: people who bought or inherited an existing system who need to understand how it works (usually because it has stopped doing so). Then we put our thinking caps on and try to reverse-engineer the design based on the information given and figure out how it was supposed to work and why it no longer does. It's fun. :roll:

Maybe if we wrote up manuals that included not only "How To Use It" for operators and "How It Works" for engineers the systems might outlast us.

On the other hand when you're gone it won't be a worry anymore. At least for you.

Thom

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

No problem for me . My wife is much smarter then me :0) she can fix prc 77 and prc 25 for USMC . Good at auto repair to . Hate to say it But She may be better off without me ! Ha ha but who would take out the garbage if I was gone ? She does need me

Thom

waynefromnscanada

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

My mother used to say that if anything ever happened to me, no one would have any idea what to do with my house. lol
Unfortunately, considering the interests of folks in these parts, she was saying a truth
And yes, my poor old prized pump, probably the last of it's kind still running.

niel

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

interesting scenario and one that i never would've dreamed of dwelling into.

i look at it this way, if i'm gone and nobody around me took enough interest in it to keep it going then they did not want to keep it going or were too lazy to bother. i'd be gone and it wouldn't be a concern to me at that point and in my opinion would be such a waste if not implemented afterward.

vtmaps

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

niel wrote: »

then they did not want to keep it going or were too lazy to bother.

My wife is not lazy, and she would want to keep it going. Our concern is that she not technically savvy enough to keep it going.
Example: I fired up my eu2000 so that I could run the central vacuum (1700 watts). I forgot to turn off the eco throttle. When I started the vacuum the inverter dropped the generator and the vacuum was operating on battery power. There was a momentary flicker during the transition and I immediately knew what happened. She would not have known, and would have vacuumed until the voltage sag hit the low voltage disconnect.

Perhaps my system is too undersized and non-automatic. It demands constant vigilance. But I am afraid that if add more automation (such as AGS, automatic battery watering, etc) the system will become even more complex and still require constant vigilance.

Volvo Farmer wrote:

I have also thought about this scenario, and came to the conclusion that the best thing to do was to get a life insurance policy with enough benefits to bring in the grid should I meet an untimely demise.

I've had that thought also, but then I'm just not dieing to be on the grid:p

--vtMaps

waynefromnscanada

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

vtmaps wrote: »

My wife is not lazy, and she would want to keep it going. Our concern is that she not technically savvy enough to keep it going.

That's my problem. No one and I mean no one around here, would have a clue how to keep my system alive
It will be like my Grandmothers special molasses/ginger cookie recipe that no one could duplicate, when she died, it died with her.

westbranch

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

vtmaps wrote: »

Perhaps my system is too undersized and non-automatic. It demands constant vigilance.

Hmmmm, looks like you could add 2x more PV (its cheap right now) and a parallel battery and solve some of your issues;)

vtmaps

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

westbranch wrote: »

Hmmmm, looks like you could add 2x more PV (its cheap right now) and a parallel battery and solve some of your issues;)

More PV would be good. But parallel batteries?!?! Then I would have to teach her to use a current clamp meter. She doesn't seem to retain (from one training session to the next) that current is amps.

And I would have to roll over in my grave twice if she murdered two battery strings at once. --vtMaps

DanS26

Re: Your system, after you're gone...

I have the "book". My wife says we need it "in case". So I started to write it all down, but then I realize after about 40 pages that no one will read this, much less understand how the systems I built really work on a daily basis. No one will maintain what I maintain, all will slowly stop working and be scrapped or replaced.

So, I'm leaving a message to my wife and children to sell it all on E-bay right away and forget about. It was my stuff and I don't expect you to fret over it.

So, here is the stuff that will be for sale:

36 Kyocera solar panels (235 watt)
1 Fronius 7.5 kW grid tied inverter
1 Generac back up generator with transfer switch
1 Nyle heat pump water heater
1 Great Lakes Reverse Osmosis water system 24 gal/day
1 TED electrical usage monitoring system
3 Metlund hot water circulating systems
1 Desert Spring humidifying system
1 workshop full of just about every tool any man could want
1 wine cellar fully stocked