AGS settings for Outback FM60

Cariboocoot

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

BajaSun wrote: »

I am presently working on one string of 6V 400AH Lifeline AGM's configured to 24V.

The morning low battery light is on and reads 24.6V

My generator is wired through the FX charger which if I rmember correctly limits current to 20A?

Actually the numbers on the MATE display for the FX charger are expressed in Amps AC, not Amps DC. Multiply by 5 to get the approximate DC Amps. If yours is showing charge Amps of 20 AAC then it is cranked to the max and that's not good. For 400 Amp hours it should be about 8 to 9 AAC.

Anyway, on firing up the genny, I watched the voltage readout go up fairly fast (a few minutes) from 24.6 to absorb voltage of 28.6V

This is a bad sign. It can indicate a reduced battery capacity due to sulphation. It can also indicate the charge current/Voltage has been set too high and the sealed batteries have vented and lost electrolyte (permanent, irreversible damage).

Maybe I should have mentioned this a while back - I thought it was one of the advantages of AGM's as they charge faster - but it really seems like they are acting just like flooded lead acids - gone bad.

This would also happen when I had the two strings wired up, albeit a little slower.

Check those charging parameters pronto!

BajaSun

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

This is where I've made the biggest screwup then as I've always thought the bigger the charger the better! I've always had the FX charger set at 20aac.

I've never seen evidence of lost electrolyte and I would if that's the case, yes?

Genny just got shut off as it had done it's two hours - but cloudy today and the FM immediately dropped into bulk reading 25.5

All last readings taken from the Mate or FM which are generally the same. I only read individual batteries with MM

BB.

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

With good quality AGMs, I believe you are OK with high current as long as the charging voltage is set correctly.

With "high current" charging, you probably will leave the bulk stage more quickly--but the absorb will still take 2-4 hours or so to complete as the batteries naturally limit the charging current (as long as charging voltage set point is correct).

-Bill

Cariboocoot

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

The FX's charger doesn't have a clock on it, so a short Bulk stage won't limit the Absorb time. It does have a minimum setting (working from failing memory here as my OB book is at the cabin). I believe the default is 1 hour.

Even so, longer time in Bulk has a similar effect to longer time in Absorb. I believe Dave Sparks often recommends the long, slow charge over the short, quick one (he often installs systems with trackers so you get that long, all-day charging regime). I myself have noticed the charging through the solar panels and controller just seems to work better than from the AC, although I can't quite pinpoint why. It may well be the time factor.

When we go on about charging batteries up quickly it's usually because of the short "window of opportunity" provided by solar: about 4 hours to go from Bulk to Float before there's no sun left to work with. Pushing it even faster is not necessarily a good thing.

Can't recall if it's been mentioned before but ...
Keep the generator running once Absorb has been reached. Don't just shut it down after a couple of hours. Watch the Charge Amps on the MATE's Summary screen. See how long it takes to drop to 1 AAC. That should be a complete Absorb cycle.

If there's not enough sun for the panels to maintain the Absorb Voltage, keep the generator on. I know it's a lot of fuel for a little charge, but these batteries stand no chance of recovery if they don't get several full recharges.

BajaSun

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

I have only ever programmed in volts for charging parameters.

What end amps should I program for the absorbtion? This needs to be clear for me as it is where I really can get confused.

Thanx

BB.

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

End amps (transition from absorb to float) is usually around 1-2% rate of charge (older flooded cell batteries will have higher 'self discharge' current).

So, if you have a 200 AH battery ban, then somwhere around 2-4 amps would be the termination current.

The timer is there because--if you have DC loads during the day--You still want to enter float (a standard charge controller cannot determine where the current is going--So if you have loads plus battery charging, you may never hit the 1-2% current set point). For solar, that is not usually a big issue--Your solar array is going to turn off when the sun set anyway (probably a bigger issue for battery banks being charged from utility power--The timer is critical then--Say a UPS type operation (uninterruptable power supply--backup power for computers/home power).

And, you have the separate timer (if there is one) that you program to X hours... Perhaps 2 hours in summer/low system usage (vacation cabin with nobody there), and 4-6 hours when bank is heavily used and/or during winter (when occupied) when you need to collect all the power you can.

Regarding running the genset--More or less most gensets are pretty fuel efficient when operated at 50% or more of electrical load. And very inefficient with less than 25% load (the inverter-generators like the Honda and Yamaha's can be a bit more fuel efficient at 25% rate of charge because the auto throttle can back genset down to lower RPMs to support smaller loads).

Diesels are a whole different issue--but still should be operated at 40-60% minimum load.

-Bill

BajaSun

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

So with my huge 11kw generator gas hog. it's not really straining charging my bank, only when the water pump (1hp) kicks in - so not to worry about setting end amps? I'd say it uses less than a gallon/hr. Another reason to convert it to propane, of course, I'd rather not run it at all!

BB.

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

BajaSun--You are going to have to put a "signature" on your account--I am not quite sure what your bank is (400 AH or 800 AH)... But anyway, I am cheap so here is how I would size the genset for best fuel efficiency.

Assuming 400 AH @ 24 volt battery bank you are trying to condition (one string at a time). 5/10/13/25% rate of charge (minimum, nominal, max solar cost effective, max never exceed--typical), the rated charger would:

• 400 AH * 5% = 20 amps (minimum recommended)
• 400 AH * 10% = 40 amps (healthy nominal)
• 400 AH * 13% = 52 amps (maximim without remote battery temperature sensor)
• 400 AH * 25% = 100 amps (with batt temp sensor + watching battery bank temperature/condition)

And the minimum rated VA genset (assuming VA = Watt rating for smaller/non-commercial gensets):

• 400 AH * 29 volts charging * 1/0.80 charger efficiency * 1/0.67 typical PF for charger * 0.05 rate of charge = 1,082 VA genset
• 400 AH * 29 volts charging * 1/0.80 charger efficiency * 1/0.67 typical PF for charger * 0.10 rate of charge = 2,164 VA genset
• 400 AH * 29 volts charging * 1/0.80 charger efficiency * 1/0.67 typical PF for charger * 0.13 rate of charge = 2,813 VA genset
• 400 AH * 29 volts charging * 1/0.80 charger efficiency * 1/0.67 typical PF for charger * 0.25 rate of charge = 5,410 VA genset

So--If you had a 200 Amp @ 24 volt genset and were charging ~800 AH of battery bank, you could justify the 11 kW genset.

But--Assuming you have cranked the inverter-charger down to 10 AAC @ 120 volts, your estimated charging current from the genset is:

• 10 amps AC * 120 VAC = ~ 1,200 VA (watts?) of generator capacity.

You could get a Honda eu2000i and run that on about 0.25 gallons per hour (or a bit less).

A bit better than the 1 gallon per hour of your 11 kWH genset.... I would not toss the large genset (if you have need for more power at times, and still works for backup to backup power), but when you need to run hours of battery charging charging at lower power levels, a second genset matched to your charger/battery needs can save you lots of money on fuel.

Converting to propane will actually cost you more gallons of fuel (less "energy" in a gallon of propane vs a gallon of gasoline)...

If propane is a better fuel for your use--There are some companies out there that make propane conversions for these smaller gensets.

Add that a well maintained eu2000i should run 2,000 to perhaps 6,000+ hours--They are not "throw away" gensets (where 100-500 hours for the smaller units out there is common).

Chris Olson here has a very nice Honda EM4000SX genset [fixed.-Bill B] that would be very nice if your loads are larger (supports auto start)--The small Hondas and most others are manual start, or electric start+manual choke/monitoring.

-Bill

vtmaps

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

BajaSun wrote: »

So with my huge 11kw generator gas hog. it's not really straining charging my bank, only when the water pump (1hp) kicks in - so not to worry about setting end amps? I'd say it uses less than a gallon/hr. Another reason to convert it to propane, of course, I'd rather not run it at all!

Huh?!?! I don't see what you are getting at... what does end amps have to do with generator or pump?

BajaSun wrote: »

So with my huge 11kw generator gas hog. it's not really straining charging my bank, only when the water pump (1hp) kicks in - so not to worry about setting end amps? I'd say it uses less than a gallon/hr. Another reason to convert it to propane, of course, I'd rather not run it at all!

Do you think it will cost less to run on propane than to run on gasoline?

--vtMaps

BajaSun

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

Sounds like I'm starting to bug folks - if so, sorry! I've been off grid for 14 yrs and have basically been self-taught as I'm down here in Baja, MX so this forum is totally satiating my lack of good info over the years. BUT, obviously I've either been misled or have misled myself down the road and an re-learning a LOT. Unfortunately at a point wher I thought I knew enough to spend a lot of money on a new, bigger battery bank last year so I'm really upset - mostly with myself - for getting into this predicament!

As I said, for some reason when we start talking amps....I glaze over a little. So when cariboocoot mentions to check your end amps as well as end voltages, the sulfated brain starts to click and jam somwhat. Hence the comment from vtmaps makes me dumbstruck as I'm believing I should be setting an end amps setting on my Mate! Following me so far??!

I ended up with the large generator in a deal - couldn't refuse as it was almost brand new. I have a propane conversion kit to put on it so I can use the AGS (no manual choke etc) and yes propane is a little cheaper down here and easier to store in 500liter tanks. Might even set it up for load control too so I can run AC for a while in the summer in my office for the computers (I'm a house and internet designer). Also I hobby in woodworking and various concrete finishing techniques requiring POWER TOOLS - Yeah!

So Bill, (signature - picture of a Jedi maybe??) still confused on the AH issue. I have two banks of 6V L-16's in a 24V configuration in parallel, 400AH batteries.

I'm Stepfording.....

vtmaps

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

BajaSun wrote: »

Sounds like I'm starting to bug folks - if so, sorry!

You are not bugging me... if you were, I would ignore you. Anyway, I think you do not understand what end amps is. I have to go off line now. If someone else doesn't explain end amps, I will do so later.

--vtMaps

BB.

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

BajaSun,

Not upset at all... Just like to give accurate information and a signature kind of helps keep focus on what your basic system looks like--So I don't suggest something out of left field that only confuses the issues.

I have put a bit in your signature and enabled signature display (advanced posting check box). You can update your signature here:

http://forum.solar-electric.com/profile.php?do=editsignature

I am always into "water analogies"... Amp is like gallons per hour. Amp*Hours is like gallons pumped.

We also need to know the water pressure (how high the water is being pumped)... Again that can be 10' of water * 4 gallons per hour (V*A = Watts). This is a "rate" (Amps=Gallons per hour; Amp*Hours=Gallons pump; Watts=Gallons per Hour pumped 10' high)

Or a total amount of water pumped 10' high... Such as 10' * 4 gallons per hour * 3 hours = 12 gallons pumped up 10' (or Watt*Hours).

Watts and Watt*Hours is "everything".

Amps and Amp*Hours is missing "voltage")... Was that at 12 volts or at 120 volts.

10 amps at 12 volts = 120 watts
10 amps at 120 volts = 1,200 watts -- Or 10x the amount of power.

10 amps * 120 volts * 4 hours = 4,480 Watt*Hours (the energy used--Power*Time).

-Bill

Cariboocoot

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

Let's be clear about this:

The Outback MX60, FM60, and FM80 solar charge controllers do have an "End Amps" function. It's purpose is to cease the Absorb cycle when the current is very low regardless of how much time is remaining before the maximum Absorb time.

The Outback FX inverters' built-in chargers do not have an "End Amps" function, which drives everybody nuts because it would be so great to have it be able to trigger gen shut-down.

If the MATE is connected only to the FX you will only be able to access the FX charger's parameters. If it is connected to both (via a HUB) you can see both, but in different locations.

We may be headed for a new standard in muddy explanations here.

BajaSun

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

Thanx all. I will modify my signature - just don't laugh! I'll be back into it in the morning as light is fading and have two hungry Rotties to deal with as well as hopefully, one last holiday dinner party to head out to......!

vtmaps

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

vtmaps wrote: »

Anyway, I think you do not understand what end amps is. I have to go off line now. If someone else doesn't explain end amps, I will do so later.

I'm back.

During bulk charging your solar charge controller (or generator powered battery charger) is putting out all the current (amps) it can into the battery.

While this happens the battery voltage is rising. When the voltage rises to the Absorb Voltage Set Point, the charge controller holds back on the current (amps) so that the battery voltage does not rise above the Absorb Voltage Set Point. This is the Absorb stage of charging.

During the Absorb stage, the current continues to decline until the battery is fully charged, and then it stops declining. The current at that time is the End Amps.

Once you get fully charged it is important to stop the Absorb stage so the battery is not overcharged. The most common way to stop Absorb is with a timer. Unfortunately, in a typical system the ideal amount of Absorb time is different every day.

A better way to stop Absorb stage is for the controller stop charging when the current declines to the End Amps.

In order to use End Amps on your charge controller, your controller must know how much current is going into the batteries. Of course, the controller knows how much it is producing, but that isn't necessarily the same as what is going into (or out of) the batteries.

Any questions?

--vtMaps

BajaSun

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

Thank you vtmaps. Great explanation! Also, going back through the posts Bill explained calculating the end amps based on AH. I gleaned from that for my 400AH bank, finish at 4-8A, when I have both banks hooked back up 8-16A.

Did I get it? If so I'm going to set the mid range for now and decrease from there.

BB.

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

Yep--You got it.

-Bill

BajaSun

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

Great!

Not sure if I'm jumping ahead again, but I might have a hint of a problem. In monitoring the absorption this morning. Cutting generator and using the sun I checked voltages and I have one battery that seems to be rising more than the others - this is still in bank 1. 6.89, 6.80, 7.51, 6.76

What do you think? Battery spec says max 7.20 during absorb

Also, about the end amps situation. Cariboocoot mentioned (I think) where I can monitor the end amps on the Mate or the FM? Can someone tell me the exact screen ie the sequece to get there, as I can't seem to find it and I've been ALL over those screens - believe me?!

westbranch

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

keep watching grasshopper ... things are starting to correct. It may be a surface charge that will not hold or...

Was that after 3 hours or right after charging?
What were the morning readings?

What was the absorb time and Voltage again?

Cariboocoot

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

BajaSun wrote: »

Also, about the end amps situation. Cariboocoot mentioned (I think) where I can monitor the end amps on the Mate or the FM? Can someone tell me the exact screen ie the sequece to get there, as I can't seem to find it and I've been ALL over those screens - believe me?!

You can't actually monitor the end Amps, but you can monitor the Amps.

The FM's read out shows the Amps it is putting to the batteries. The MATE's summary screen shows the charge Amps from the FX when it is charging.

The FM can control Absorb charge via an End Amps setting. The FX can not.

Basically you want to watch the Amps while charging to see how long it takes to get to the point that would be End Amps. That gives you a good number for maximum Absorb time. As in "it took almost 3 hours in Absorb before the Amps was down to 2% of battery capacity therefor maximum Absorb time should be 3 hours".

BajaSun

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

I had my FX charger set at 9Aac this morning. Genny charged a little slower and reached absorb in an hour after I had set the end amps at 4.0 even though I had absorb set time for three hours on the FX and FM - not sure why it did that.

Those readings were approx i hr after the genny had been off and the system was soaking in the sun.

It was a grey day yesterday so I had to juice up with the genny a little later in the day to help out and this morning still had low battery but was at 24.7V

BB.

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

That 7.51 volt batter may be your best battery or your worse... It could be high voltage because it is 100% charged and the others are still "equalizing"... Or it can be at high voltage because it is sulfated and refusing further charging current.

Your options would be to put a 12 volt battery charger across a single battery at a time and see if you can bring them up.

Or, you could even get a 12 volt light (like an old car headlight) and put it across the the high voltage battery. That will bypass ~4 amps (through the headlight) around the high voltage battery and allow it through the lower voltage batteries (basically a "shunt" controller load).

When discharging your battery bank at night--What happens to the battery voltages? Does the high voltage battery still remain high(er) than the rest during normal discharging, or does the voltage "collapse" to below the others (collapsing voltage would indicate a less than healthy battery).

-Bill

vtmaps

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

BajaSun wrote: »

I had my FX charger set at 9Aac this morning. Genny charged a little slower and reached absorb in an hour after I had set the end amps at 4.0 even though I had absorb set time for three hours on the FX and FM - not sure why it did that.

If you reached absorb in an hour that means you were in bulk stage for an hour. The whole business of timing absorb, or ending absorb via the end amps function starts after bulk stage ends.

--vtMaps

vtmaps

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

BajaSun wrote: »

Also, going back through the posts Bill explained calculating the end amps based on AH. I gleaned from that for my 400AH bank, finish at 4-8A, when I have both banks hooked back up 8-16A.

You can't calculate end amps from ah capacity. You can estimate end amps from the ah capacity. The end amps for your battery will vary with the age and health of your battery.

If you want to know what your particular end amps is, set your charger for a very long absorb time. While the batteries are absorbing check the current every 20 minutes. When the current stops declining that is the end amps for your battery.

In order to do this you must be able to monitor the current into your batteries. You can do this with a shunt based battery monitor, or you can use the display on the FM (if the FM is the charger). If you use the FM display, you must disconnect the inverter and any DC loads so that the current coming out of the charger is the same as the current going into the batteries.

--vtMaps

BajaSun

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

I will ck voltages in the morning to see what this rascal battery shows. In the meantime, my second bank sitting idle all seem to be around 6.35 +/- 0.03

I think I will recable the batteries through my Perko battery switch to make it easier to switch between the banks as well as use both banks. My preference of course is to use both all the time for a more constant SOC when it gets to that stage.

Is there a recommendation for a battery monitor for this situation?

I think I'll look into some more panel wattage too.

BajaSun

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

Disconnect the inverter - as in simply turn it off? No DC loads, so no problem there. Problem is telling my wife "no power" for several hours! Thank goodness laptops have their own power source!

I'll have to work on getting permission for this one!

I actually will have to wait to get a battery monitor as not all my PV goes through the FM so that reading would not be accurate.

BB.

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

Broken record time--A simple $60 DC Current Clamp DMM meter like this one (next time one of your family is in the US), can allow you to measure DC current at any time/any place... Very handy for temporary usage like this.

-Bill

BajaSun

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

Yes and no - I've tried that link several times but it shunts off to sears in MX site and I can never track it down! I have a Sears in La Paz (90 miles away) that I was going to check next week sometime.

BB.

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

It is this meter private labeled for Sears (my guess) at about 1/2 the typical retail price I have seen:

http://www.extech.com/instruments/product.asp?catid=26&prodid=83

At least you can see the specifications.

The Sears information is:

Craftsman Digital Clamp-On Ammeter
SearsItem# 03482369000 | Model# 82369

-Bill

Vic

Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

Hi Baja..

Regarding the rested bank reading nominal 6.35 V/battery. Seems that they are fully charged, or very close to it. Battery voltage is affected by the temperature of the batteries, and the exact specs for the batteries. But seems to me that they are very close to full.

A battery switch that allows selecting either one or both banks seems to be a good idea for AGM batteries. IMHO, when there is such a selector swithc in the system, the CC should connect directly to the battery, ideally through a circuit breaker (or a Fuse).

Looks llike you are making progress. Good Luck, Vic