Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

mike95490

After loosing my simple "keep alive" Iota charger (it fried it's inrush device, and Iota is shipping me a new part) and NEEDING power in the cloudy winter weather, I finally got the AC2 wired in to the XW6048, and got it working with the listeroid generator. I had issues with it wanting to toss the drive belt off, and other things, but it's going now. 62Hz unloaded, 59Hz with full load. Sweet.
So now, I'm wanting to really optimize the programming settings, and have the following questions.

If the XW will charge batteries, and invert while doing so, why is GEN SUPPORT needed ? Does it not invert while charging ? Or is this a mode to transfer all power to generator, and if it sags, add a little boost?
Would this be a good mode to run an arc welder in, if the XW is mostly only monitoring power, and not driving an arc welder?

AC2 Breaker size, I'll have to work up a little chart, for use with my different generators, depending on how much fuel I want to burn!

Mike

westbranch

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

Mike I think there was a good explanation on the XW recently, directed at the bypass/charge function IIRC, last 2? months.

hth

inetdog

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

mike95490 wrote: »

If the XW will charge batteries, and invert while doing so, why is GEN SUPPORT needed ? Does it not invert while charging ? Or is this a mode to transfer all power to generator, and if it sags, add a little boost?
Would this be a good mode to run an arc welder in, if the XW is mostly only monitoring power, and not driving an arc welder?

Since, IIRC, the XW uses the same FET and transformer circuitry to charge from AC as to invert, I do not think it can do both at the same time. And I can't see any reason to. But if you mean at different times while in the same mode, yes it can.

You have to set the maximum output (amps, not power) that you want to (or can) draw from the generator. (The XW has an internal AC shunt or CT.)
As long as the load is less than that value, it will try to charge the batteries.
Once the load starts to excede that value, it will stop charging and will cut in the GT inverter to provide any current beyond that maximum that the loads call for. As long as the generator has any excess capacity, the XW will give priority to charging rather than discharging the batteries. It does not have to wait for the generator to sag, and indeed if the generator would sag too far, because you set Generator Max Amps too high, the GT function and probably also the charger would cut out based on the programmed low voltage or low frequency limits (which might be less narrow than the sell limits on AC1.)

Joe_B

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

Generator support is used to supplement loads on the generator with battery energy. In other words, if the AC loads approach the programmed generator output (breaker size) then the inverter will draw power from the battery to prevent overloading the generator.

mike95490

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

inetdog wrote: »

Since, IIRC, the XW uses the same FET and transformer circuitry to charge from AC as to invert, I do not think it can do both at the same time. And I can't see any reason to. But if you mean at different times while in the same mode, yes it can.

OK, XW emailed me the latest version of the manual, and I suppose, that I use Gen support, if I want to run loads simultaneously with charging. And Gen Support Plus, to balance the loads. Set the Gen Support amps to say, 50% of generator rating ( a 5kw, I'd set to ??) Are these 120VAC amps, or 240V amps ?? Gawk ! Another phone call Monday.

Cariboocoot

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

It only works one way: tries to charge batteries and run loads while generator is operating. If combined use gets to be too much for generator's capacity, charging is reduced, eliminated, or replaced by inverting to match load demand.

That doesn't mean it works right, btw. This is Xantrex; manufacturers of equipment only an entomologist could love.

Blackcherry04

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

Cariboocoot wrote: »

It only works one way: tries to charge batteries and run loads while generator is operating. If combined use gets to be too much for generator's capacity, charging is reduced, eliminated, or replaced by inverting to match load demand.

That doesn't mean it works right, btw. This is Xantrex; manufacturers of equipment only an entomologist could love.

I'd like to know how the OutBack does with this mode. The one that many here would have interest in would be the GFX 1512, GFX 1524 when used with a Honda EU 2000. This would be a great test for NAWS to do with a real life load. Is it seamless and how does the Honda handle it with ECO throttle On and Off. I'd buy one today , if I had the answer.

I am reluctant to spend another $1,100 on marketing hype and a huge disappointment and a another piece of junk in the pile.

"" Grid/Generator Support

A system display is required to control this feature. When this feature is enabled, the inverter limits
the current draw from an AC source, augmenting it with additional current from the batteries when
necessary. This helps prevent overloading a small AC breaker or generator during short-term use.

Initially, the AC source current is used for both loads and battery charging. In the MATE system display, the
ac1/grid limit or ac2/gen limit settings dictate the maximum AC draw. If the AC draw exceeds this setting,
the inverter reduces its charge rate to give priority to the loads.

The charge rate will be reduced as much as necessary to support the loads. If the loads equal the
amperage setting, the charge rate will be zero.

If the AC loads exceed the amperage setting, the charger will begin operating in reverse. It will take power
from the batteries and use it to support the incoming AC current. ""

Cariboocoot

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

Well NAWS doesn't do any testing of this sort as far as I know. They just sell stuff and good prices with great service. Again, none of us moderators work for them; we're just volunteer spam shovellers (no, not ducks).

All battery-based GT inverters function much the same in this respect; pushing or pulling current as needed according to battery SOC and output load demands. I don't deal with GT stuff (no one around here would be foolish enough to spend the money for ten-cent power) so I've never seen a GFX inverter.

You bring up a good point about the eco-throttle; I wonder which would react to changing loads first? They can be a bit sluggish, especially when operating "at the low end of power".

I can tell you a bit about how the FX performs under the same conditions. It will reduce charging current as load demand increases and does so seamlessly. The eco-throttle will pull up first, then the charge current will slack off, and if the demand continues to increase the generator is dropped entirely and the inverter supplies power. If this load change is too large and sudden there is an interrupt in power; long enough to cause a reboot on a standard computer or a "no power" scream from a laptop.

The GFX should never drop gen and not suffer from the surge demand as its push-pull from batteries is seamless in GT operation. Whether or not it actually works well I can not say.

Anyone else tried this? I know some off-grid guys here have the GT Outback model.

Blackcherry04

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Well NAWS doesn't do any testing of this sort as far as I know. They just sell stuff and good prices with great service. Again, none of us moderators work for them; we're just volunteer spam shovellers (no, not ducks).

All battery-based GT inverters function much the same in this respect; pushing or pulling current as needed according to battery SOC and output load demands. I don't deal with GT stuff (no one around here would be foolish enough to spend the money for ten-cent power) so I've never seen a GFX inverter.

You bring up a good point about the eco-throttle; I wonder which would react to changing loads first? They can be a bit sluggish, especially when operating "at the low end of power".

I can tell you a bit about how the FX performs under the same conditions. It will reduce charging current as load demand increases and does so seamlessly. The eco-throttle will pull up first, then the charge current will slack off, and if the demand continues to increase the generator is dropped entirely and the inverter supplies power. If this load change is too large and sudden there is an interrupt in power; long enough to cause a reboot on a standard computer or a "no power" scream from a laptop.

The GFX should never drop gen and not suffer from the surge demand as its push-pull from batteries is seamless in GT operation. Whether or not it actually works well I can not say.

Anyone else tried this? I know some off-grid guys here have the GT Outback model.

If it works the GFX series would be a shoo in. I hear you about the testing and advice. It's something that would set them aside from all the other Web Sellers and a big plus.

SolaRevolution

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

Hold on. I don' t believe that Outback FX can supplement generator power. Neither can Magnum.

I'd be delighted to be wrong about this. I've taken this to be one of the-company-formerly-known-as-Trace' s advantages.

Remember that the AC2 Breaker Amp settings are 125% of the maximum current flow. The GenSupp Amps are supposed to be the actual setting at which the XW will supplement the generator power. You should confirm that this is really how it works.

As I understand it, the AC2 amp settings are for 240vac. While in Gen Support the XW will act as a load balancing transformer for the generator output.

There are different versions of XW manuals and firmware and they do not all agree. I strongly recommend checking with Tec support and then cautiously confirming in the field.

- Alex

stephendv

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

SolaRevolution wrote: »

Hold on. I don' t believe that Outback FX can supplement generator power. Neither can Magnum.

AFAIK, the G series outback's can supplement gen power, but the regular VFX's can't. The caveat of course is that the G series only work with inverter quality power, so they're only likely to boost inverter-gens and not normal ones.

Cariboocoot

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

Yup: a GFX is a grid tie inverter. As far as it is concerned, the generator is another form of grid and it will synch to it. Since it also has internal battery charging regulation expecting to be fed from AC on the same connection when available, there is no problem of potentially over-charging the batteries (unlike with AC coupling to back-feed from a GT inverter to a standard OG inverter which can be a problem).

I wouldn't say it can only work with inverter-gens, but a standard gen has a wider range of output parameters and would require reprogramming the GFX to accept "poor quality" power.

Dave Angelini

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

SolaRevolution wrote: »

Hold on. I don' t believe that Outback FX can supplement generator power. Neither can Magnum.

I'd be delighted to be wrong about this. I've taken this to be one of the-company-formerly-known-as-Trace' s advantages.

Remember that the AC2 Breaker Amp settings are 125% of the maximum current flow. The GenSupp Amps are supposed to be the actual setting at which the XW will supplement the generator power. You should confirm that this is really how it works.

As I understand it, the AC2 amp settings are for 240vac. While in Gen Support the XW will act as a load balancing transformer for the generator output.

There are different versions of XW manuals and firmware and they do not all agree. I strongly recommend checking with Tec support and then cautiously confirming in the field.

- Alex

This is accurate in my opinion. The SW and XW are the only inverter / chargers that can push current from the battery to support a generator. I think the SW did a better job but the XW can work also if the generator larger than 2 KW. The grid tied Outback will either charge from a inverter type genrator or the grid but will not support these sources from the battery.

On an XW the user programmed input gen breaker size will derate the charging amps automatically. It is too bad that the "hybrid" XW really is a pain to program for offgrid. The grid funtionality and their screens should just be eliminated in an offgrid application. It would be easy to do as many of the other simple things that are back burner to the Xantrex team.

The good news is once it is set-up it is very reliable.

stephendv

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

Dave Sparks wrote: »

This is accurate in my opinion. The SW and XW are the only inverter / chargers that can push current from the battery to support a generator.

...and the sunny island and the victron multiplus and the studer xtender.

stephendv

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

Page 17 of the outback GFX manual describes gen support which can limit the power drawn from the generator and augment it with battery power.

Cariboocoot

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

stephendv wrote: »

Page 17 of the outback GFX manual describes gen support which can limit the power drawn from the generator and augment it with battery power.

Yup. It's just that so far it seems no one around here has tried it.

XW's are great. Providing you don't mind dealing with all the bugs and the disinterested company. :roll: Only my opinion, but these guys are on my black list for all the faults in equipment and problems people have had getting corrections (some of which have yet to be resolved).

Dave Angelini

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

stephendv wrote: »

AFAIK, the G series outback's can supplement gen power, but the regular VFX's can't. The caveat of course is that the G series only work with inverter quality power, so they're only likely to boost inverter-gens and not normal ones.

The G can invert or charge batteries with pass-thru AC, but not both at the same time! They do not have bi-directional current flow! Sorry to be a pain but this is pretty old stuff here.

ChrisOlson

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

Dave is correct. I talked with Outback Tech Support about this. It was a feature that was intended to be added at one point, is in the Mate menu, and in the manual, but it never made it into the hardware in the FX-series (including the grid-tied ones). The only inverter that Outback builds that has generator support is the GS8048 Radian.

Magnum Energy will be coming out with one called the MSH4024RE. :
http://www.nacleanenergy.com/articles/13695/hybrid-inverter-charger

Magnum has not set a release date yet for the new inverter. One of the engineers only told me in a recent email that they are "so very close" to releasing it.

From the GFX-series manual on pg 47 for the Mate menus and generator setup:
The AC2/GEN SUPPORT setting allows the GFX to assist the generator for very large AC loads or if the generator’s continuous power is less than the continuous power of the GFX and the loads are drawing more power than the generator can give. Currently the GFX cannot work with generators
and, furthermore, OutBack’s generator support is inoperable at this time.

They mention over and over and over again (at least a dozen times in the manual) that the GFX-series are NOT designed to be used with generators. And that's because if it thinks the generator is the grid it could try to "sell" power to the generator and wreak havoc with your generator.
--
Chris

Ken Marsh

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

Mike,
Had a similar situation here. After a week of no sun the battery was not in good shape.
My shop is off grid and at the moment I don't even have grid available there.
So decided to try charging with the XW6048 since it was already connected to the bat.
Ran a temporary line from the genset, an old 10 Kw Kohler, to the AC2 input.
Had to turn the "Gen Support" on but everything else was default setting.

Turned it on and it just sat there. The shop was drawing some 2 KW which was coming from the battery.
It said it was "Qualifying" and the green led next to the generator symbol was blinking.
Then after four or five min it suddenly transferred the load to the genset and started charging the bat at over 100 amp.
This pulled the genset down a couple cycles but it held steady.
Shortly after that the sun came out and the combined charging current went over 150 amps according to a Trimetric in the line.
I was watching the battery but could see no gassing nor heating so just let it continue.
After a couple hr. Bat voltage got up around 57 volts and the XW cut current back.
I must say I was impressed how well it performed.
The metering is great.

You ask about welding with an inverter.
Generally, it doesn't go good with a simple transformer type welder such as the Lincoln red doghouse.
Even if you can get the inverter to stay with you, arc quality is not good with a lot of splatter.
But inverter type welders are different.
My main welder is a Miller Maxtron 450. It is an inverter welder.
A single XW6045 barefoot will power the Miller up to about 180 amp arc current.
Above that will kick out the inverter. Weld quality is great.

Blackcherry04

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

ChrisOlson wrote: »

Dave is correct. I talked with Outback Tech Support about this. It was a feature that was intended to be added at one point, is in the Mate menu, and in the manual, but it never made it into the hardware in the FX-series (including the grid-tied ones). The only inverter that Outback builds that has generator support is the GS8048 Radian.

Magnum Energy will be coming out with one called the MSH4024RE. :
http://www.nacleanenergy.com/articles/13695/hybrid-inverter-charger

Magnum has not set a release date yet for the new inverter. One of the engineers only told me in a recent email that they are "so very close" to releasing it.

From the GFX-series manual on pg 47 for the Mate menus and generator setup:
The AC2/GEN SUPPORT setting allows the GFX to assist the generator for very large AC loads or if the generator’s continuous power is less than the continuous power of the GFX and the loads are drawing more power than the generator can give. Currently the GFX cannot work with generators
and, furthermore, OutBack’s generator support is inoperable at this time.

They mention over and over and over again (at least a dozen times in the manual) that the GFX-series are NOT designed to be used with generators. And that's because if it thinks the generator is the grid it could try to "sell" power to the generator and wreak havoc with your generator.
--
Chris

Are we talking about the same GFX inverter ??

http://www.outbackpower.com/products/sinewave_inverter/low_power/

http://www.outbackpower.com/docman/11031111115351900-0114-01-00REVA.pdf

ChrisOlson

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

Are we talking about the same GFX inverter ??

http://www.outbackpower.com/products/sinewave_inverter/low_power/

http://www.outbackpower.com/docman/11031111115351900-0114-01-00REVA.pdf

Yes. We started looking at putting in a 48V inverter late last fall. I called Outback to inquire about that and was told the feature is in the Mate Menu and in the manual, but it is not implemented in the hardware. If I wanted generator support in an Outback product I'd have to buy a GS8048 Radian. The fellow I talked to handed me off to Francine Flores, who hooked me up with a local Outback dealer. In the end, we didn't buy an Outback. But that's what I was told.
--
Chris

Cariboocoot

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

Well that would certainly explain why no one has done it!

Blackcherry04

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Well that would certainly explain why no one has done it!

Yeah, but I want to do it........lol. Like I first said, been down this road before and ended up at a dead end. I am not happy with Magnum either, their charger transitions are horrible. The 70 Amp charger will spike to 142 Amps as it's tripping the breaker.

ChrisOlson

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

Yeah, but I want to do it........lol. Like I first said, been down this road before and ended up at a dead end. I am not happy with Magnum either, their charger transitions are horrible. The 70 Amp charger will spike to 142 Amps as it's tripping the breaker.

Well, we ended up buying a NIB SW Plus 5548 and couldn't be happier with it. There's still a few out there brand new in the box if you search a little bit. Generator support in the SW Plus is totally seamless and the amount of overload capacity the thing has to run heavy loads before the generator gets there to help out is pretty much unbelievable**. They have remained to this day the standard by which all others are judged.

** I pulled sort of a boner. I disabled the generator relays on Saturday to change oil in our generator. I forgot to re-enable the GSM relays when I got done with it. The generator hasn't needed to run until yesterday when my wife decided it was time to run a self cleaning cycle in her 240V electric range. That range goes thermonuclear on Self Clean and draws 6.2 kW.

About two hours into the Self Clean my wife calls me on the phone and says there's a red error light flashing on the display in the kitchen and the MidNite battery meter is down into the red. I told her to scroll thru the Errors Menu to find out what's wrong - "Gen Failed to Start YES". One of those slap the forehead moments. That 5548 inverter had been putting out over 7 kW for two hours, standalone, without any help.
--
Chris

BB.

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

Hope the battery bank is OK.

-Bill

ChrisOlson

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

BB. wrote: »

Hope the battery bank is OK.

Oh yeah. The bank was probably 80% SOC when she started, and it only pulled about 14 kWh from it. As soon as she went out to the utility room and enabled the gen relays, then cleared the error, the inverter fired the generator right up. The voltage popped right up to 48 volts as soon as the gen came online.

The voltage always drops well below nominal under a very heavy load and recovers almost instantly when the load is taken off.

The point is that the only company that has ever built a suitable replacement for the SW Plus off-grid inverter is SMA with the Sunny Island 5048. Outbacks are fine for small installations and they don't have generator support. The XW and GS8048 are split phase, which is fine for grid-interactive setups but introduces leg balancing problems for off-grid folks on split-phase power. I've tried both a stacked setup and the single inverter + autotransformer setup, and IMHO the 120V inverter with an autotransformer is the superior setup. Zero leg balancing issues and the inverter efficiency + idle draw of the transformer is better than running either stacked or split phase inverters at lighter loads.

It would be nice if somebody would try gen support with the GFX and report on if they get it to work or not. But the guy at Outback told me the GFX just doesn't play nice with generators, period. Even very stable ones. And he told me it's an unsupported configuration as far as Outback is concerned.

Somebody mentioned running an arc welder with an inverter. I ran my Lincoln 225 AC/DC on the dual inverters with no problems. I've tried it with the 5548 and the autotransformer and it works just as well. I can weld anything up to about 200 amps with it. But if I have a big welding job I have a separate generator just to run the welder, and I use that instead of the inverter. I haven't noticed any of the problems someone else mentioned with an unstable arc welding on inverter power with a transformer type welder.
--
Chris

mike95490

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

I've now turned GEN Support OFF, and just use it for charging. I was getting strange results, with the charger not running, the diesel genset running my baseline load of 150W, and the batteries not charging. Just switching gen support off, and my charge rate jumped up to my limit set by AC2 Breaker. And there is nothing I've found the inverter won't run, even the nasty +7KW floor sander the floor crew was using.
And about every 4th time the transfer relay switches, several GFI outlets shut down. Highly annoying.

ChrisOlson

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

mike95490 wrote: »

I've now turned GEN Support OFF, and just use it for charging. I was getting strange results, with the charger not running, the diesel genset running my baseline load of 150W, and the batteries not charging. Just switching gen support off, and my charge rate jumped up to my limit set by AC2 Breaker. And there is nothing I've found the inverter won't run, even the nasty +7KW floor sander the floor crew was using.
And about every 4th time the transfer relay switches, several GFI outlets shut down. Highly annoying.

Charging does not take place during generator support depending on the load and the delay times set. If the load drops below Load Support threshold the generator will continue to run, carrying your baseline loads, until the shutdown delay time is reached. In other words, it will load share with the generator until the total AC load current (generator plus inverter output) drops by 2 amps plus 10 per cent of the GenSup Amps setting for 0.5 seconds. Gen support is designed to be used with generators smaller than 5 kW. I don't how big your generator is but the transformer center tap is hooked to neutral in the inverter during gen support and you can get circulating currents if you are trying to support too big of a generator. And then will get (see below).

GFCI's are one of the most annoying things ever devised by man. Sometimes they will nuisance trip if you look sideways at them on Friday.
--
Chris

Dave Angelini

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

ChrisOlson wrote: »

Oh yeah. The bank was probably 80% SOC when she started, and it only pulled about 14 kWh from it. As soon as she went out to the utility room and enabled the gen relays, then cleared the error, the inverter fired the generator right up. The voltage popped right up to 48 volts as soon as the gen came online.

The voltage always drops well below nominal under a very heavy load and recovers almost instantly when the load is taken off.

The point is that the only company that has ever built a suitable replacement for the SW Plus off-grid inverter is SMA with the Sunny Island 5048. Outbacks are fine for small installations and they don't have generator support. The XW and GS8048 are split phase, which is fine for grid-interactive setups but introduces leg balancing problems for off-grid folks on split-phase power. I've tried both a stacked setup and the single inverter + autotransformer setup, and IMHO the 120V inverter with an autotransformer is the superior setup. Zero leg balancing issues and the inverter efficiency + idle draw of the transformer is better than running either stacked or split phase inverters at lighter loads.

It would be nice if somebody would try gen support with the GFX and report on if they get it to work or not. But the guy at Outback told me the GFX just doesn't play nice with generators, period. Even very stable ones. And he told me it's an unsupported configuration as far as Outback is concerned.

Somebody mentioned running an arc welder with an inverter. I ran my Lincoln 225 AC/DC on the dual inverters with no problems. I've tried it with the 5548 and the autotransformer and it works just as well. I can weld anything up to about 200 amps with it. But if I have a big welding job I have a separate generator just to run the welder, and I use that instead of the inverter. I haven't noticed any of the problems someone else mentioned with an unstable arc welding on inverter power with a transformer type welder.
--
Chris

Chris,
I have a client here in the county that is running an XW single phase and it works really well in gen support BTW. He can run an eu2000i as a source and start a 1 horse franklin. It replaced an sw 4048 and he likes it better than the SW because of the metering improvment.

ChrisOlson

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

Dave,
Yes, I had forgotten that a person can wire the XW for 120V only by putting some jumpers in there. That's a nice feature, and even with a little EU2000 helping out in gen support it could run a pretty big load. If we had a XW instead of the SW Plus, that's the way I'd have it wired, and use the Outback PSX-240 for the split phase leg. Totally eliminate leg balancing issues.
--
Chris

Blackcherry04

Re: Final Commissioning XW & generator paired

Here is a answer from OutBack, The question I asked was because it was mentioned here that it was in the Manual and in the Mate but did not function in the hardware. Keep in mind the model I asked about. Your still on you own, If I order one, I'll post back.

Hello
The GFX does have gen support but it is a software function not a hardware feature.
A Mate is required to select and adjust gen support.
I hope this helps
Take Care,

Lones Tuss
Applications Engineer
Direct: 360-618-4383
Cell: 425-213-8794
OutBack Power Technologies
6115 62 Ave NE Arlington Wa 98223 USA
Tel: 360.435.6030 Fax: 360.435.6019

www.outbackpower.com<http://www.outbackpower.com/&gt;

Subject: Need to Know

Hi, I am interested in making a Outback purchase of a GFX 1312. According to all the information on your Web Site and product manual this Inverter has " Generator Support ". I have been told that this feature is not in the hardware and I'd like to know if it is or isn't. Please advise me.