Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

lamptree

O.K. here is the plan.

1. Get a 240 watt solar panel. install it on your roof. Install an Enphase-240-watt-micro-inverter on the roof also, underneath the solar panel. Connect the solar pannel to the Enphase micro-inverter.

2. Connect an a.c. power cord to the micro-inverter a.c. power oultet.... Run the power cord down the side of your house and plug it into a regular a.c. outlet on the outside of the house. The micro inverter will then sycronize the current and feed power back to your power company. This may slow down your meter a little and save you money each month on your electric bill.

The advantage of this teqhnique is that there is no monitoring equipment to buy. And the enphase-micro inverter has been proven as an excellent inverter, well trusted by professionals. Therefore, no monitoring equipment is needed to see if it is working anyway. Just make sure that the solar-pannel faces full sun.

You can repeat this process and get a multiple outlet for 5 bucks at your local store and add more pannels later on as you get more money, and plug them all into the multiple outlet... So it is also an expandable system also!

So, I know this is not up to code, and it wont pass inspection. But, it's better than spending a large amount of money if you don't have a lot of money.

However, would this cause a fire hazard? Not sure. Anyone know?

Further more, I am new with solar panels. Would this system work? Any feed-back here?

Cariboocoot

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

Welcome to the forum.

Yes, that's how micro-inverters are connected. Except for the part about plugging them into an outlet. There have been many discussions about "plug-n-play" inverter installs like this on the forum. They're illegal and potentially hazardous. One 200 Watt inverter is unlikely to cause any trouble, but if you add more ... you have no way of knowing where in the wiring you're connecting it to. This is why micro-inverters require dedicated wiring to the service panel, complete with permits, inspection, and utility co-operation.

BTW, the big problem in your plan is that the Enphase puts out 240 VAC and the outlet is 120 VAC.

As I said, one 200 Watt inverter probably wouldn't be a problem. It also probably wouldn't be a help; it's barely a blip on most people's electrical use.

Here's something you might find more valuable: a Kill-A-Watt meter http://www.solar-electric.com/kiacpomome.html

Use it to check out everything you plug in. That way you can identify where your electricity dollar is going. Conservation efforts will return you much more per $ invested than production efforts. The cost of the Enphase + panel could replace an energy-sucking appliance that's wasting more energy per day than the micro-inverter would produce.

solarix

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

Why does this forum seem to attract people trying to do solar on the cheap?

God love them, I'd like to drop out of "the system" and live cheap (not have to work so hard) too. But this is America, the very definition of the 1st world, and things that are dangerous like electricity and especially electrical generation are not done on the cheap. In other countries, you can do these "informal" installations, but here you will get in trouble. Did you hear how in New York after Storm Sandy, the IBEW union prevented outside workers from helping with emergency repairs? Right or wrong, there is no such thing as a free lunch. If you want the benefits of this country, you need to play by the rules and pay the price by doing your part to keep it going.

icarus

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

Working, and working properly are not always the same thing! If you wish to do it "righter" wire the out put of the inverter to a dedicated breaker!

Tony

paulskirocks

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

Keep in mind that if there is an outage, and all you are doing is feeding straight into the grid with no transfer switch, you will be heating up the power company line, which can be a problem for them if working on the line... This could end up your liability... Although, maybe those inverters have auto shutoff if there is no utility power? I don't know, but I do know that back feeding into a system while it's down is a no-no...

BB.

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

With any reasonable GT Inverter--They will shut down if there is no grid. A pure GT inverter has no way of generating a "free standing" 120/240 VAC 60 Hz wave form. All they can do is pump current into a line already powered with a 60 Hz sine wave (they are a current source feeding a voltage source--Off Grid Inverters are Voltage Sources feeding loads).

So--From that point of view (using UL/NRTL approved GT inverters such as the Enphase), will be "safe".

-Bill

rollandelliott

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

you're wasting your time even a 2kw system which is 8 panels has a very poor return on investment ratio.

If you are poor you cannot afford to spend $4,000 to $6000 for a 2KW system.

Save your pennies till you get enough to do at least a 2kw or 4kw system.

the sad part about solar is that the panels and gear is depreciating faster than they are paying back savings.

it is pretty depressing to spend $4,000 on something only to have it be worth $3,000 a year latter. especially when it only made you $400 in energy.

Not exactly reaching your goal of saving money is it?

True in the long run you will save, but theses types of people are looking to save money in a few years.

ggunn

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

lamptree wrote: »

O.K. here is the plan.

1. Get a 240 watt solar panel. install it on your roof. Install an Enphase-240-watt-micro-inverter on the roof also, underneath the solar panel. Connect the solar pannel to the Enphase micro-inverter.

2. Connect an a.c. power cord to the micro-inverter a.c. power oultet.... Run the power cord down the side of your house and plug it into a regular a.c. outlet on the outside of the house. The micro inverter will then sycronize the current and feed power back to your power company. This may slow down your meter a little and save you money each month on your electric bill.

The advantage of this teqhnique is that there is no monitoring equipment to buy. And the enphase-micro inverter has been proven as an excellent inverter, well trusted by professionals. Therefore, no monitoring equipment is needed to see if it is working anyway. Just make sure that the solar-pannel faces full sun.

You can repeat this process and get a multiple outlet for 5 bucks at your local store and add more pannels later on as you get more money, and plug them all into the multiple outlet... So it is also an expandable system also!

So, I know this is not up to code, and it wont pass inspection. But, it's better than spending a large amount of money if you don't have a lot of money.

However, would this cause a fire hazard? Not sure. Anyone know?

Further more, I am new with solar panels. Would this system work? Any feed-back here?

Don't do this. As someone else pointed out, an Enphase microinverter's output is 240VAC, so you cannot plug it into a wall socket. But even if you could, adding more of them to more outlets is a very bad idea because you could overload the circuits in your house without tripping circuit breakers and burn your house down. Also, if your utility catches you connecting power sources to their grid without an interconnect agreement (you cannot get an interconnect agreement with the system you describe and solar modules on your roof are very hard to hide), they will cause you all kinds of grief.

Do it right or not at all.

Cariboocoot

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

BTW, what should happen if you connect a GT inverter's 240 VAC output to a 120 VAC line is that the inverter will detect "low Voltage" and determine that the grid is down. The anti-islanding function should then prevent it from producing any power and trying to distribute it through the wiring. It should not try to force the 120 line up to 240.

In other words the inverter would simply not do anything at all.

Blackcherry04

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

Not to mention it'd be hard to buy a 240W panel and a Enphase Inverter for less than $500. With any luck and all the variables you might get $30 of electricity a year return on your $500 investment. I think you would be better served to try to conserve that $30 a year.

stephendv

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

Not to mention it'd be hard to buy a 240W panel and a Enphase Inverter for less than $500. With any luck and all the variables you might get $30 of electricity a year return on your $500 investment. I think you would be better served to try to conserve that $30 a year.

Which would pay for itself in 16 years. The guarantee for both panel + inverter is for 25 years.

Blackcherry04

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

stephendv wrote: »

Which would pay for itself in 16 years. The guarantee for both panel + inverter is for 25 years.

Both true if that was the only costs involved in the system. I guess you could prop it against the wall and use a extension cord, after all it's a Poor Mans bootleg Grid Tie. I still vote for conservation.

inetdog

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

stephendv wrote: »

[$500 to save $30 per year]...Which would pay for itself in 16 years. The guarantee for both panel + inverter is for 25 years.

Only if you consider that there would not be any place that you could invest the money for the same length of time that did any better than inflation.
People who calculate ROI often seem to leave that part out of calculation.
If you find an investment which returns 6%, then your $500 will get you $30 per year and at the end of that time you would still have the $500 rather than just a 16 year old PV system. :-)

ggunn

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

inetdog wrote: »

Only if you consider that there would not be any place that you could invest the money for the same length of time that did any better than inflation.
People who calculate ROI often seem to leave that part out of calculation.
If you find an investment which returns 6%, then your $500 will get you $30 per year and at the end of that time you would still have the $500 rather than just a 16 year old PV system. :-)

It also has to do with risk tolerance. How sure are you that the 6% return will recur? Energy costs going up is a pretty safe bet.

inetdog

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

ggunn wrote: »

It also has to do with risk tolerance. How sure are you that the 6% return will recur? Energy costs going up is a pretty safe bet.

In which case the simple calculation of $500 divided by $30 to get the payback period is still incorrect. To get a meaningful number, you need to explicitly take both factors (increase in rates and likely market interest) plus others like depreciation of the equipment into account.

Depending on the magnitude of the other factors, the simple division process could give wildly incorrect results, including, of course, the possibility that the investment would never pay off at all.

It is a valid rough approximation when the payback period is short (~5 years or less), but gets progressively less accurate and less certain as the period increases.

pivot.enabled

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

lamptree wrote: »

O.K. here is the plan.

1. Get a 240 watt solar panel. install it on your roof. Install an Enphase-240-watt-micro-inverter on the roof also, underneath the solar panel. Connect the solar pannel to the Enphase micro-inverter.

2. Connect an a.c. power cord to the micro-inverter a.c. power oultet.... Run the power cord down the side of your house and plug it into a regular a.c. outlet on the outside of the house. The micro inverter will then sycronize the current and feed power back to your power company. This may slow down your meter a little and save you money each month on your electric bill.

The advantage of this teqhnique is that there is no monitoring equipment to buy. And the enphase-micro inverter has been proven as an excellent inverter, well trusted by professionals. Therefore, no monitoring equipment is needed to see if it is working anyway. Just make sure that the solar-pannel faces full sun.

You can repeat this process and get a multiple outlet for 5 bucks at your local store and add more pannels later on as you get more money, and plug them all into the multiple outlet... So it is also an expandable system also!

However, would this cause a fire hazard? Not sure. Anyone know?

Further more, I am new with solar panels. Would this system work? Any feed-back here?

For modern grid tie micro inverters like Enphase you will have to plug it into a 220 (240) volt split phase outlet and preferably one with both neutral and ground. There is nothing whatsoever unsafe about this as long as you wire the plug correctly. The outlet should be indoors so that you don't need to be concerned about water and you should use wire rated for outdoor use. Might look a bit trailer trash with that wire strung however you would have to run it

The people talking about this not being cost effective are full of it because what you are proposing is perfectly scalable in either direction. You have little or no overhead in the way of installation costs and other ancillary equipment so your return on the dollar is as good as it can possibly be. To put it another way, if THIS is not cost effective then NOTHING is! Those suggesting a code or permit problem are also not thinking straight. Since you are plugging it in it is not permanently attached to the house and is not subject to permits.

As for other safety concerns this is a grid tie inverter so it won't produce power unless it sees power at the plug. No need to worry about frying a line man. If you are accustomed to working with home wiring then this should not be a problem otherwise don't do it. Now normally speaking producing voltage on a *MALE* plug would be a no no, but in this case it is irrelevant because the grid tie inverter(s) will stop producing power the moment the plug is pulled and in fact some of them don't start to produce power until several minutes after plugging them in (safety feature).

So yeah, you can do this, and it is cheap, and you can add panels with grid tie micro inverters as you can afford to do so. You will pay a slight premium for the panels but really not all that much nowadays if you shop carefully. Even if you use a plug, a dedicated 220 circuit would be a better idea. You can also install a receptacle for outdoor use or better yet have an electrician install that. There are also limitations to how many panels you can string but those are spelled out by the inverter manufacturer and also dictated by the size of the circuit you install. Simple math.

Cariboocoot

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

Welcome to the forum.

We have to say here that in most locations connecting any type of GT inverter without the co-operation of utility and local authority is illegal.

The dangers from it come not because of the inverter itself but from the wiring which can be problematic without a known dedicated line. This is why all "plug-n-play" inverters are not legal for installation even though they are legal for sale. A curious paradox indeed.

If you go to the trouble to make sure the wiring is safe you may as well do the whole installation right.

Even though one 200 Watt inverter isn't likely to show up on the grid "radar", the installation of one is likely to encourage the addition of others. It is not unreasonable given that many people see this as a practical way to expand their involvement with solar energy. At some point the cumulative inverters will become noticeable to the grid, and then you can have a problem. As has been mentioned before this can range anywhere from being charged for surplus power production (due to incorrect metering) to having the utility object and remove your service to being held liable in an insurance settlement even if the inverter is not responsible for the problem (due to its being an illegal install).

Again, such installations are entirely at the risk of the homeowner. We do not condone much less recommend this course of action.

niel

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

it most certainly is a fire hazard when more current can be present on a circuit than the wire, bus, and circuit breaker can account for. for example you have a 15a circuit protected by a 15a cb then all is fine. now introduce your solar plugnplay to it and now that circuit has that 15a from the utility and whatever you are putting into the circuit from solar. if loads go high on the circuit it will provide extra power on it that it cannot handle and there's no tripping of breakers for protection. sure you can stop any loads from being used on the circuit, but as long as there are outlets that possibility still exists and if you dedicate that circuit and its associated breaker anyway then just go ahead with a properly hardwired install.

follow the logic on this? it's why plugnplay is frowned on here and from the nec.

solar_dave

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

Plus you are attaching to the utilities grid, not yours. They have a right to know you are interacting with their equipment. Most Utilities have an interconnect agreement and it usually states that NEC must be followed. Also most jurisdictions require electrical work to have an approved permit.

Any one of the above can cause a meter pull and lockout.

bmet

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

pivot.enabled wrote: »

For modern grid tie micro inverters like Enphase you will have to plug it into a 220 (240) volt split phase outlet and preferably one with both neutral and ground. There is nothing whatsoever unsafe about this as long as you wire the plug correctly. ........The people talking about this not being cost effective are full of it because what you are proposing is perfectly scalable in either direction. .

I hate to be one who casts dispersions on this idea, but you can't make something from nothing. How much Current does the panel produce, and how much is lost in the conversion? How many Amps will be available at the end of the plug? What happens to anything 'under power' when that cloud passes by? Are you willing to set a repeated alarm to go outside and be your own Azimuth Tracker? Will a power tool or appliance die quietly when the heat lowers the panel's efficiency?

The constant change of a panel's output from one instant to the next creates so many opportunities to destroy gadgets. That alone ought to put a pause in your plans.

Cariboocoot

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

bmet wrote: »

I hate to be one who casts dispersions on this idea, but you can't make something from nothing. How much Current does the panel produce, and how much is lost in the conversion? How many Amps will be available at the end of the plug? What happens to anything 'under power' when that cloud passes by? Are you willing to set a repeated alarm to go outside and be your own Azimuth Tracker? Will a power tool or appliance die quietly when the heat lowers the panel's efficiency?

The constant change of a panel's output from one instant to the next creates so many opportunities to destroy gadgets. That alone ought to put a pause in your plans.

Actually that is not an issue because the GTI's output is coupled to mains power. Loads do not see any difference if the power they receive is sourced from the GTI or from the utility. The inverter output is just thrown into the mix on the wires.

bmet

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

Then I apologize for misundertanding the intent. It sounded to me as if the Responder was endorsing a simple dedicated system with one panel and one micro-invertor to supply one Edison plug, completely un-attached to the grid.

Cariboocoot

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

bmet wrote: »

Then I apologize for misundertanding the intent. It sounded to me as if the Responder was endorsing a simple dedicated system with one panel and one micro-invertor to supply one Edison plug, completely un-attached to the grid.

Ah, but a GTI with no utility power attached produces nothing.

bmet

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

There is probably some who have hacked those inverters to make them try anyway

pivot.enabled

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

niel wrote: »

it most certainly is a fire hazard when more current can be present on a circuit than the wire, bus, and circuit breaker can account for. for example you have a 15a circuit protected by a 15a cb then all is fine. now introduce your solar plugnplay to it and now that circuit has that 15a from the utility and whatever you are putting into the circuit from solar. if loads go high on the circuit it will provide extra power on it that it cannot handle and there's no tripping of breakers for protection. sure you can stop any loads from being used on the circuit, but as long as there are outlets that possibility still exists and if you dedicate that circuit and its associated breaker anyway then just go ahead with a properly hardwired install.

follow the logic on this? it's why plugnplay is frowned on here and from the nec.

If it is hardwired then it certainly does require a permit. If it is plugin and ground mounted then it does not. Enphase allows up to 17 inverters on a trunk line plugged into a 20amp 220 circuit. Plug or no the limitations are identical. Assuming that the OP is going to forget what the limitations are doesn't make sense and there is the additional advantage that the panels can be taken along if and when they move.

pivot.enabled

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

Your line of reasoning here does not make sense. The only technical difference between this and a conventional install is whether it is hard wired or plugged in. I totally agree that it is sensible for this to be on a separate circuit. If I were doing this for example I would install an outside 220 receptacle such as one might use for a hot tub. Again, the *plug* is the only technical difference between this and any other install.

Cariboocoot

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

pivot.enabled wrote: »

If it is hardwired then it certainly does require a permit. If it is plugin and ground mounted then it does not. Enphase allows up to 17 inverters on a trunk line plugged into a 20amp 220 circuit. Plug or no the limitations are identical. Assuming that the OP is going to forget what the limitations are doesn't make sense and there is the additional advantage that the panels can be taken along if and when they move.

Enphase micro-inverters are meant to be hardwired, not plugged in.

All plug-in connections of this type are illegal, even where the NEC is not "enforced". All the aforementioned potential problems and limitations apply.

This is not an advisable course of action.

pivot.enabled

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

solar_dave wrote: »

Plus you are attaching to the utilities grid, not yours. They have a right to know you are interacting with their equipment. Most Utilities have an interconnect agreement and it usually states that NEC must be followed. Also most jurisdictions require electrical work to have an approved permit.

Any one of the above can cause a meter pull and lockout.

All of us are interacting with their equipment all the time. That is not an issue. There is nothing precluding the outside plug from being permitted and installed according to code and I am not suggesting otherwise.

Cariboocoot

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

pivot.enabled wrote: »

All of us are interacting with their equipment all the time. That is not an issue. There is nothing precluding the outside plug from being permitted and installed according to code and I am not suggesting otherwise.

There is quite a difference in interacting with the utility by using their power and interacting with it by sending them power.

Likewise there is a difference between installing an outlet that meets NEC specs to run a load and installing any type of power input connection.

If you do not understand the difference you should not be attempting to do it nor be advising others to do so.

pivot.enabled

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

Cariboocoot wrote: »

All plug-in connections of this type are illegal

I would be very interested in seeing any documentation supporting this assertion.

pivot.enabled

Re: Poor mans grid-tied system.. The plans.. Fire hazard? Or will it actually work?

Cariboocoot wrote: »

If you do not understand the difference you should not be attempting to do it nor be advising others to do so.

I understand the difference, and I am not advising anyone to do anything. I am answering the OPs actual questions with real answers rather than FUD and assertions. As always the OP can do whatever they wish to do and they should take everything into account.