Question On APS EPR-6 Rate Schedule...

I know at the end of a calendar year, under the EPR-6 schedule, APS converts any remaining kWh credits into a billing credit carried forward. But it's unclear to me when this actually occurs. In the rate schedule, it refers to "the last billing period of each calendar year" but in my case, my meter gets read and the billing period ends on or around the 8th of the month meaning, as I interpret it, that the billing credit will be generated for me on my December 8th bill and not the January 8th bill even though the latter includes a large chunk of December usage. Has anyone been on the plan long enough to have had an end of year billing credit generated and confirm my interpretation?

Comments

  • BB.BB. Posts: 25,039Super Moderators admin
    Re: Question On APS EPR-6 Rate Schedule...

    I just got my PG&E credit--Not very much (something like $0.05 a kWH) but it did knock ~$20-30 or so off my bill.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • solarixsolarix Posts: 713Solar Expert
    Re: Question On APS EPR-6 Rate Schedule...

    APS interprets this as the end of your December bill. You want this to be as late as possible in order to use up the excess credit from fall generation. You may be able to request APS to change your billing date to an end of the month cycle. It is dependent on the available meter reading cycles though.
  • solar_davesolar_dave Posts: 2,274Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Question On APS EPR-6 Rate Schedule...

    Yes it is on the bill with the bulk of Dec on it. I noticed after a while they got my billing cycle very close to month end, plus or minus a day or so, YMMV.
  • Ian SIan S Posts: 35Solar Expert
    Re: Question On APS EPR-6 Rate Schedule...
    solarix wrote: »
    APS interprets this as the end of your December bill. You want this to be as late as possible in order to use up the excess credit from fall generation. You may be able to request APS to change your billing date to an end of the month cycle. It is dependent on the available meter reading cycles though.
    I thought I would want this as early as possible so I could start banking peak credits for the new year.
  • Ian SIan S Posts: 35Solar Expert
    Re: Question On APS EPR-6 Rate Schedule...
    solar_dave wrote: »
    Yes it is on the bill with the bulk of Dec on it. I noticed after a while they got my billing cycle very close to month end, plus or minus a day or so, YMMV.
    So far my bill date hasn't changed but I guess I'll watch for that. Thanks.
  • Ian SIan S Posts: 35Solar Expert
    Re: Question On APS EPR-6 Rate Schedule...

    Well, I got my December APS bill (through the 10th) and it has determined and applied my my annual $ credit for unused solar. All of that credit was from on-peak production so I'll have the rest of December to start building on-peak credits for next summer!
  • DashadeauxDashadeaux Posts: 19Registered Users
    Re: Question On APS EPR-6 Rate Schedule...

    I found this thread while investigating a Delivery Charge issue on my bill. The power company pays me a Delivery Charge for each kWh I send to the grid, but they will not allow the Delivery Charge line item to go negative.

    I installed solar last June, living in the Phoenix AZ area. My Dec billing ended on the 31st. To me the EPR-6 reconciliation value of each On Peak solar kWh remaining at year end is worth $0.027 cents more than the value the power company assigns, but the $0.027 is not assured. For me that raises the value of my On Peak excess to something approaching $0.09/kWh.
  • BB.BB. Posts: 25,039Super Moderators admin
    Re: Question On APS EPR-6 Rate Schedule...

    Welcome to the Forum Dashadeaux!

    There seem to be as many billing plans as there are utilities (in my case, there are about 4 different GT plans). For my utility, in Northern California, we get credited the retail rate for power based on Time of Use and how much we use/generate (tiers) every month.

    We get retail credit, but at the end of one year, if there is a positive balance, the account is zeroed out--And just last few months, they now pay us a few cents per kWH for every "extra" kWH we generate over our usage.

    For commercial customers, the details are a lot more complex.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • DashadeauxDashadeaux Posts: 19Registered Users
    Re: Question On APS EPR-6 Rate Schedule...

    Thank you BB,

    I'm not new to solar but there are questions that arise from time to time, and this forum in my opinion, answers them well. I understand many are buying their solar, but my experience is limited to leasing solar... so please read with that in mind.

    I've only dealt with one utility, and from that experience I am ready to accept that every utility functions differently. I've read some of Solar_dave's responses and find that he as well was a bit confused about how the local AHJ was handling excess solar. I don't know if he's gotten a resolution as yet, but my experience was similar and the AHJ has answered the question.

    I'm leasing my solar equipment and the leasing co has installed a reasonably good monitor that allows me to extract daily production at 5 minute intervals. Using this daily output I have built an XL spread sheet that provides to the penny what my solar savings are.

    To my mind, anyone owning and staying in the home for 3+ years should install solar. Our AHJ is just starting a recovery process that will help restore lost revenue due to residential and commercial solar installations, and I believe the recovery process is just beginning.

    Those living in the Phoenix area will see a new line item on their power bill soon, perhaps as early as Mar 01, 2013. The line item (Lost Fixed Cost Recovery, or LFCR) will affect every homeowner and is expected to be 1% of the amount the power company bills (taxes and assessment not included).

    While going thru the solar installation process, the power company gives the homeowner the choice of selecting how to reconcile excess solar, the choice being EPR-2 or EPR-6 (this may be universal... don't know). I suppose there are times when EPR-2 is the best option, but as far as my experience goes EPR-6 wins by a landslide.
  • BB.BB. Posts: 25,039Super Moderators admin
    Re: Question On APS EPR-6 Rate Schedule...

    I don't know anything about your utility's billing plans... But back when I got my system some 8+ years ago, we had a choice of flat rate residential or Time of Use (peak noon-6pm week days, premium peak pricing during the "six months of summer"). Laster on, TOU was required and they created a new plan with up to 3 time frames (off peak, partial peak, peak). And 4 different rate tiers. And different rates/peak plan between summer/winter.

    There were some issue... When the state PUC pushed for Mandatory TOU pricing, it pushed folks off of flat rate which really pushes up summer time energy costs for those with Air Conditioning. Especially for folks that wanted a small system first to see if it worked--If the system was too small, the TOU Summer Rate plans would push up the overall electric bill (even with a smallish solar GT system).

    Another problem was tiering--Basically use 300 kWH per month, and you paid a smaller kWH charge. Use >900 kWH per month, and your charges could hit as high as $0.40 to $0.50 per kWH (summer peak, top tier pricing). Well, for folks with solar GT, the utility started pushing people into higher tiers based on energy generated--So if you had a larger system, and an electric car that charged at night, you could really get really high power charges for off peak power usage. It was a mess for almost a year before it was "fixed".

    The current TOU plan for residential is E-6 (PG&E--PDF download here):
    Total Energy Rates $ per kWh) PEAK PART-PEAK OFF-PEAK
    Summer
    Baseline Usage $0.28719 (I) $0.17528 (I) $0.10074 (I)
    101% - 130% of Baseline $0.30529 (I) $0.19338 (I) $0.11884 (I)
    131% - 200% of Baseline $0.45535 (I) $0.34343 (I) $0.26890 (I)
    201% - 300% of Baseline $0.49535 (I) $0.38343 (I) $0.30890 (I)
    Over 300% of Baseline $0.49535 (I) $0.38343 (I) $0.30890 (I)
    Winter
    Baseline Usage – ( ) $0.12129 (I) $0.10495 (I)
    101% - 130% of Baseline – ( ) $0.13939 (I) $0.12305 (I)
    131% - 200% of Baseline – ( ) $0.28945 (I) $0.27310 (I)
    201% - 300% of Baseline – ( ) $0.32945 (I) $0.31310 (I)
    Over 300% of Baseline – ( ) $0.32945 (I) $0.31310 (I)
    Total Meter Charge Rate ($ per meter per day) $0.25298 ( )
    Total Minimum Charge Rate ($ per meter per day) $0.14784 (
    

    And then you have the rate tiers (based on location and gas or all electric home):
    1. BASELINE RATES: PG&E may require the customer to file with it a Declaration of
    Eligibility for Baseline Quantities for Residential Rates.
    2. BASELINE (TIER 1) QUANTITIES: The following quantities of electricity are to be
    billed at the rates for baseline use (also see Rule 19 for additional allowances for
    medical needs):
    BASELINE QUANTITIES (kWh PER DAY)
    Code B - Basic Quantities Code H - All-Electric Quantities
    Baseline Summer Winter Summer Winter
    Territory* Tier I Tier I Tier I Tier I
    P 15.3 (C) 12.7 (C) 18.0 (C) 33.9 (C)
    Q 7.5 I 11.7 I 9.1 I 19.3 I
    R 17.1 I 11.7 I 20.9 I 30.2 I
    S 15.3 I 12.0 I 18.0 I 28.6 I
    T 7.5 I 9.1 I 9.1 I 16.8 I
    V 12.0 I 13.6 I 19.4 I 33.4 I
    W 18.5 I 10.9 I 23.5 I 22.8 I
    X 11.0 I 11.7 I 10.3 I 19.3 I
    Y 11.7 I 13.2 I 14.1 I 30.7 I
    Z 7.9 (C) 10.6 (C) 11.2 (C) 22.5 (C)
    

    And you have to figure out the time periods for the different peak/p-peak/o-peak summer/winter:
    TIME PERIODS: Times of the year and times of the day are defined as follows:
    Summer (service from May 1 through October 31):
    Peak: 1:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m. Monday through Friday
    Partial-Peak: 10:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m.
    AND 7:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. Monday through Friday
    Plus 5:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. Saturday and Sunday
    Off-Peak: All other times including Holidays.
    Winter (service from November 1 through April 30):
    Partial-Peak: 5:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. Monday through Friday
    Off-Peak: All other times including Holidays.
    

    And then you need to know the Official Sate PUC Holidays:
    Holidays: “Holidays” for the purposes of this rate schedule are New Year’s
    Day, President’s Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor
    Day, Veterans Day, Thanksgiving Day, and Christmas Day. The
    dates will be those on which the holidays are legally observed.
    

    But--You are not done yet--They had a different daylight savings time cut over (vs the current Pres. Bush D.S. time) because the older meters could not be easily reprogrammed (I am not even sure the following paragraph even makes sense):
    DAYLIGHT SAVING TIME ADJUSTMENT: The time periods shown above will
    begin and end one hour later for the period between the second Sunday in March
    and the first Sunday in April, and for the period between the last Sunday in
    October and the first Sunday in November.
    

    And, you also need to tell your spouse and kids the change over between summer and winter rates:
    SEASONAL CHANGES: The summer season is May 1 through October 31 and
    the winter season is November 1 through April 30. Bills that include May 1 and
    November 1 seasonal changeover dates will be calculated by multiplying the
    applicable daily baseline quantity and rates for each season by the number of days
    in each season for the billing period.
    

    Other than that--It is really easy to "explain" the rates to the family so they don't accidentally run up the electrical bill :p.

    The rules for Commercial Customers is quite a bit more complex... And has, in the past, caused dramatically increased power bills when large solar GT projects where installed on California Schools:

    A couple of News Articles...


    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • solar_davesolar_dave Posts: 2,274Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Question On APS EPR-6 Rate Schedule...
    Dashadeaux wrote: »
    Thank you BB,


    I've only dealt with one utility, and from that experience I am ready to accept that every utility functions differently. I've read some of Solar_dave's responses and find that he as well was a bit confused about how the local AHJ was handling excess solar. I don't know if he's gotten a resolution as yet, but my experience was similar and the AHJ has answered the question.

    Not confused at all, I do understand how my 9AM to 9PM TOU rate plans works and what EPR6 gains me, not much this year. Since buying a pair of Chevy Volts I really need to add some more solar, I got hit with a bill in August and again this month with a service delivery charge which just means that I consume more than I generate to that point in the year. The year end from the utility was a very minimal credit on Dec 31, about $80. That tells me I have balanced my on peak usage pretty well, but I was a bit short in August and ran the credit bank down to near zero. My off peak AC pushed me back into service delivery. I like running as much as I can off the solar and still have enough credit excess to cover fees for at least the first 6 months of the year.

    I sort of have a plan to add some solar but job issues have put those plans on hold for now. I prefer owning my solar. I got burn on a lease that probably was to good to be true, at least it wasn't a ton of money. I do have a court judgement against them but how do you get blood out of a turnip.
  • BB.BB. Posts: 25,039Super Moderators admin
    Re: Question On APS EPR-6 Rate Schedule...

    One reason to get a court ruling (in your favor) is that (I believe) you can take it as a loss off your income taxes if they don't pay the judgment.

    -Bill "not a tax professional" B.
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • DashadeauxDashadeaux Posts: 19Registered Users
    Re: Question On APS EPR-6 Rate Schedule...

    Salutations BB & solar_dave,

    BB I look at what you are up against and think my regs & charges are a simple thing in comparison.

    My AHJ is probably the same as solar_dave's based solely on his profile.

    Solar_dave, as I indicated earlier I read a number of your responses to others and the manner in which you responded convinced me I wanted to be a member of this forum. One of the response you posted indicated you had a question about your Delivery Charge and had contacted the AHJ, but no further posts were made on the matter... ergo my prior statement. I have been unable to locate the post to which I refer. I personally was quite surprised that the AHJ would treat me as a REC supplier, but then stop paying me a DC once I had given them sufficient RECs to erase the DC for kWhs they provided me. I accept they will take my monthly DC to zero, but no lower and have adjusted my calculations accordingly. Ok, on to more thinking...

    I view my solar output as an asset, and want to extract the most value for each kWh it produces. I know individuals in my community that have a system about the same size as mine, and am perplexed by how they choose to spend their generated power. The value of On Peak kWhs I produce varies depending on when those kWh's are used. If I choose to run pool equipment, etc during On Peak hours early in the year, each solar kWh consumed in the process is worth $0.11. It makes sense to me to run everything I can during Off Peak hours when the cost of the kWh is $0.02, and bank the On Peak hours for later in the year when they will be worth $0.14 each... what am I missing?
  • solar_davesolar_dave Posts: 2,274Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Question On APS EPR-6 Rate Schedule...
    Dashadeaux wrote: »
    Salutations BB & solar_dave,

    BB I look at what you are up against and think my regs & charges are a simple thing in comparison.

    My AHJ is probably the same as solar_dave's based solely on his profile.

    Solar_dave, as I indicated earlier I read a number of your responses to others and the manner in which you responded convinced me I wanted to be a member of this forum. One of the response you posted indicated you had a question about your Delivery Charge and had contacted the AHJ, but no further posts were made on the matter... ergo my prior statement. I have been unable to locate the post to which I refer. I personally was quite surprised that the AHJ would treat me as a REC supplier, but then stop paying me a DC once I had given them sufficient RECs to erase the DC for kWhs they provided me. I accept they will take my monthly DC to zero, but no lower and have adjusted my calculations accordingly. Ok, on to more thinking...

    I view my solar output as an asset, and want to extract the most value for each kWh it produces. I know individuals in my community that have a system about the same size as mine, and am perplexed by how they choose to spend their generated power. The value of On Peak kWhs I produce varies depending on when those kWh's are used. If I choose to run pool equipment, etc during On Peak hours early in the year, each solar kWh consumed in the process is worth $0.11. It makes sense to me to run everything I can during Off Peak hours when the cost of the kWh is $0.02, and bank the On Peak hours for later in the year when they will be worth $0.14 each... what am I missing?

    Yeah I did contact APS about the Service Delivery charge, the way they explained it to me was it is the annual accumulation from Jan 1 - Dec 31 of kWh delivered, so if you back feed them enough kWh you won't get a delivery charge, But in general Jan, and August I do cross the line in get a delivery charge. Jan because I use a heat pump and is usually a low production month, and Aug. because the AC has been pounding for several months and my high/night time consumption triggers the total. Once Sept hits I am usually OK again.
  • solar_davesolar_dave Posts: 2,274Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Question On APS EPR-6 Rate Schedule...

    This is actually a good thread to resurrect the discussion on.

    Service Delivery charges on APS are a YTD piece of data and a black hole for me. I just got off the phone with them about where I stand. It is explained to me as if you deliver more to the grid than you consume, the delivered kWh actually go negative until you cross the point where you consume more than delivered to the grid. The problem is there is nothing on the bill to tell you where you stand on you service delivery charges for the YTD. You go along happy as a clam paying for off-peak generation at about $0.0225 a kWh for off peak generation and boom one month you are hit with the service delivery charges. I understand the why but would prefer they show me how they are tracking it each month.

    BTW they told me I am still 605 kWh to the good on the service delivery charges as of the first of the month. That will not make it till the end of this month as the consumption has been 125 kWh a day vs ~70 kWh a day solar production. Yet I had on-peak credit of 2286 kWh on the first of the month. At some point in the fall the service delivery should swing the other way as the consumption will dramatically decrease. If I remember correctly last year we never completely consumed our on peak credit bank at any point in the year.

    There has to be a better way to do this billing crap. Their tariff is just way to complex for the average Joe to deal with and I suspect many Solar professionals as well.
  • westbranchwestbranch Posts: 4,177Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Question On APS EPR-6 Rate Schedule...

    Dave, one of these days 'they' are going to get wise and start charging Gt folks a delivery (removal) charge for taking your EXCESS away and delivering it to someone else to use (and bill them for delivery too).... Ooops did I say that ? Yup they have a legal way to double dip on your nickle...
     
    CL 647 asleep  24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL29032 FW 2079/ 2073/ 2054 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
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    Linksys Wet54g WiFi Bridge, ASUS RTN10 router, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
     Eu3000i & 1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come,
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada



  • solar_davesolar_dave Posts: 2,274Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Question On APS EPR-6 Rate Schedule...
    westbranch wrote: »
    Dave, one of these days 'they' are going to get wise and start charging Gt folks a delivery (removal) charge for taking your EXCESS away and delivering it to someone else to use (and bill them for delivery too).... Ooops did I say that ? Yup they have a legal way to double dip on your nickle...

    Well the last election they did get some people elected that are more favorable to their point of view, but I think they are a bit afraid to mess with the tariffs to much, Grid Tie solar is popping up everywhere down here. You can drive through just about any neighborhood and see the panels, 5% of the houses? Maybe. But it is pretty rare to see systems big enough to take the bill to really low levels. There are the few exceptions like me however.
  • DashadeauxDashadeaux Posts: 19Registered Users
    The 2016 APS Rate Case review will be one I follow very closely.  Hopefully the ACC will "REQUIRE" answers from APS this time.
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