I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing

jimShaw
jimShaw Registered Users Posts: 18
m
m

I am truly new to solar and need expert input.

I am getting ready to install a 5.1 system. My electrical bill right now averages $116.00 a month and will increase as the years roll by. I have been told a 5.1 system will bring my SEC bill down to about $57 a year which will increase as Edison increases it's rates.

Here is why I am considering a lease over a purchase.

I realize a purchase is a better way to go financially BUT in my case I think a lease is better. What say you?

Here are my reasons and if I am wrong PLEASE yell at me.

My wife and I are 70 years old. We should have 20 years left on this earth. My wife maybe another 5 beyond the 20. We will never leave our home. We are there until they wheel us out. Therefore, I could not care less about the increase in value of the home that a purchased solar system creates. In fact, I almost pray the value of our home doesn't go up because if it does, the tax man will raise our property tax.

We are retired and live on soc. sec. and cash invested and our monthly income will not increase as time goes by. We have enough tax write offs that my wife and I do not pay state or federal taxes. So, it would be a waste for us to purchase because the federal grant/rebate/tax refund would be a total loss.

With a purchase I would probably have to pay upfront state taxes possibly around $3,000.00. If a solar lease is like a car lease, there might be a monthly state tax making the upfront out go less expensive.

Here is what I am planning on doing:

Lease a 5.1 system for 20 years with a 5 year extension available. We will be very lucky to get that far and my wife will have a better cost prudent electrical program set up with a solar system vs no solar if I were to go to the great beyond first.
The system will be complete covered for any problems even a golf ball coming from the course behind us. No worries about costs taking care of the system.
Cost: $14,200 pre-paid leaving the yearly electrical bill about $57.00 which will increase as Edison raises it's charges.

Is my thinking correct? Or am I not understanding something?



m

Comments

  • Caneman
    Caneman Solar Expert Posts: 71 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing

    not an expert here but it seems there are two ways to look at it, imo...

    you could be looking at it as an investment... if you are looking at paying $14,200 now, and saving $116 per month, then this project would pay for iself in 15 years (assuming a 5% return).... not a great investment, but where can you get 5% on your money right now?

    or, if you like the peace of mind of not having anymore electrical bills and you can afford to pay the money now for the project, and not worried about the project as an investment, then it might be a good idea...

    depends on what you are looking for... i don't think solar is a very good investment, but i have a small off grid system for backup power as a convenience for me and my family, knowing that my solar equipment cost will never pay for itself...

    just depends on how you want to look at it :) hope that helps

    edit: forgot your op, lease or purchase... purchase is a 15 year payout, versus lease at 20-25 years... i like to pay cash for things so for me i would buy as it is the better investment of the two options, imo
  • solarix
    solarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing

    You are right in thinking a pre-paid lease is the way to go because the leasing company can make use of the tax credits that you cannot.
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing
    jimShaw wrote: »
    Is my thinking correct? Or am I not understanding something?

    I am off grid and know very little about leases. My concerns: What if the company goes out of business? What is the condition of your roof? (I assume your array will be roof mounted). If your roof needs repair before the lease is up, what happens?

    Do they guarantee the cost savings? If not, be sure that the system is well designed. Some shady businesses will install a system in the shade! Even an overhead power line or a TV antenna can cast enough shade to cut your power generation in half.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing

    Jim,

    I am getting close to where you are at... And for many of the reasons you state, leasing makes more sense than you purchasing a system (they leasing companies can do things with taxes and money that would throw you or I in jail).

    Assuming you have a near new roof, they do a good install with quality equipment, etc.--You probably would do OK with a lease overall (risk vs reward).

    There are several types of leases... One where you simply pay by month/year and some have a very low cost buyout. And other leases where your utility charges $0.15 per kWH and your lease starts with $0.10 per kWH with a X% increase year over year... Personally, I would not use a long term lease (10-20 years) where there is a written in stone cost increase... It is difficult to predict what our government will do to the economy over a year--let alone over 10+ years (my belief is many of the "tax breaks" for solar/leasing/etc. will "go away"--There is no money in the government to cover these costs--but the economy may collapse by that point anyway--so who knows what will happen).

    I would suggest, do "extreme" conservation first. It is almost always cheaper to conserve power than to generate it (or buy it).

    Depending on where you are located (and how much you pay for electricity)--Insulation, double pain windows, more insulation, replacing old energy hog appliances, looking at heat pump mini-split type AC systems, heat pump hot water (if you do not have natural gas), etc. may be a better place to start.

    Solar hot water/heating is probably the best return on your money--but I would be concerned about long term maintenance (much of what I "do" to my home now is looking at "last time" I will have to touch it--And I don't want to have do debug (or find a good trades man that can debug) my solar hot water system when I am 75 years old...

    Solar hot water has pumps, tanks, controller, roof/wall mounted collectors, etc. all of which can fail/leak and need work. Solar Grid Tied systems require the least maintenance of any systems--But in 10 years or so, you will need a new GT inverter ($3,000-$6,000 for a new GT inverter + labor). Hopefully the leasing company will be around to replace--but you can call an electrician to do it too (if the leasing company is not around).

    I understand where you are coming from--And I did install a GT system about 8 years ago because I do not trust our state PUC will be "sane" with respect to power charges (we already pay from $0.10 $0.50 per kWH depending on how much power we use (the more used, the higher the kWH rate).

    But, prior to installing solar, I had already gotten the electric bill down to $30-$60 per month--So a 3 kW system generates more power than I need (even with extra fridge/freezer, kids growing up, etc.)...

    Committing to long term payments, or putting out cash today for the next 25 years--Too many variables. And, from what I have seen, the money spent on a solar GT power system does not translate into increased home

    Whereas insulation, new windows, new A/C system all can add to the base value of the home (maybe 50%, perhaps helps sell the home sooner if a tough market, etc.). There are enough people that have "concerns" with solar panel bolted to the roof (leaks, worried about electrical wires on roof, etc.) that it can make the home tougher to sell.

    Also, as mentioned above, when installing solar, you have to have good sun (no shadows) from ~9a-3pm (at least) per day... If there are neighborhood trees, 2nd floor additions next door, power lines, etc. that cast shadows across your roof/installation--Wait... Figure out what it will "cost" you in lost power. Shading a few months in the winter, perhaps not too bad. Shading in summer will be a killer.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • jimShaw
    jimShaw Registered Users Posts: 18
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing
    vtmaps wrote: »
    I am off grid and know very little about leases. My concerns: What if the company goes out of business? What is the condition of your roof? (I assume your array will be roof mounted). If your roof needs repair before the lease is up, what happens?

    Do they guarantee the cost savings? If not, be sure that the system is well designed. Some shady businesses will install a system in the shade! Even an overhead power line or a TV antenna can cast enough shade to cut your power generation in half.




    --vtMaps


    I actually went through a new Lowe's program. This company is backed by Lowe's. Lowe's is testing a new program in six states and will go national if all is good. I just got back from Lowe's and was told if the solar company went BK, Lowe's will take over the warranties.
  • jimShaw
    jimShaw Registered Users Posts: 18
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing
    Caneman wrote: »
    not an expert here but it seems there are two ways to look at it, imo...

    you could be looking at it as an investment... if you are looking at paying $14,200 now, and saving $116 per month, then this project would pay for iself in 15 years (assuming a 5% return).... not a great investment, but where can you get 5% on your money right now?

    or, if you like the peace of mind of not having anymore electrical bills and you can afford to pay the money now for the project, and not worried about the project as an investment, then it might be a good idea...

    depends on what you are looking for... i don't think solar is a very good investment, but i have a small off grid system for backup power as a convenience for me and my family, knowing that my solar equipment cost will never pay for itself...

    just depends on how you want to look at it :) hope that helps

    edit: forgot your op, lease or purchase... purchase is a 15 year payout, versus lease at 20-25 years... i like to pay cash for things so for me i would buy as it is the better investment of the two options, imo

    No it is not an investment. It is a way to save on electricity bills that WILL get higher as the years roll on.

    You are incorrect regard pay off. You forget that electricity goes up anywhere from 5 to 10% a year. Edison's tiered system just went up 10%.

    My break even point is 9 years figuring rate increases that are projected and already on the schedule.
  • jimShaw
    jimShaw Registered Users Posts: 18
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing
    BB. wrote: »
    Jim,

    I am getting close to where you are at... And for many of the reasons you state, leasing makes more sense than you purchasing a system (they leasing companies can do things with taxes and money that would throw you or I in jail).

    Assuming you have a near new roof, they do a good install with quality equipment, etc.--You probably would do OK with a lease overall (risk vs reward).

    There are several types of leases... One where you simply pay by month/year and some have a very low cost buyout. And other leases where your utility charges $0.15 per kWH and your lease starts with $0.10 per kWH with a X% increase year over year... Personally, I would not use a long term lease (10-20 years) where there is a written in stone cost increase... It is difficult to predict what our government will do to the economy over a year--let alone over 10+ years (my belief is many of the "tax breaks" for solar/leasing/etc. will "go away"--There is no money in the government to cover these costs--but the economy may collapse by that point anyway--so who knows what will happen).

    I would suggest, do "extreme" conservation first. It is almost always cheaper to conserve power than to generate it (or buy it).

    Depending on where you are located (and how much you pay for electricity)--Insulation, double pain windows, more insulation, replacing old energy hog appliances, looking at heat pump mini-split type AC systems, heat pump hot water (if you do not have natural gas), etc. may be a better place to start.

    Solar hot water/heating is probably the best return on your money--but I would be concerned about long term maintenance (much of what I "do" to my home now is looking at "last time" I will have to touch it--And I don't want to have do debug (or find a good trades man that can debug) my solar hot water system when I am 75 years old...

    Solar hot water has pumps, tanks, controller, roof/wall mounted collectors, etc. all of which can fail/leak and need work. Solar Grid Tied systems require the least maintenance of any systems--But in 10 years or so, you will need a new GT inverter ($3,000-$6,000 for a new GT inverter + labor). Hopefully the leasing company will be around to replace--but you can call an electrician to do it too (if the leasing company is not around).

    I understand where you are coming from--And I did install a GT system about 8 years ago because I do not trust our state PUC will be "sane" with respect to power charges (we already pay from $0.10 $0.50 per kWH depending on how much power we use (the more used, the higher the kWH rate).

    But, prior to installing solar, I had already gotten the electric bill down to $30-$60 per month--So a 3 kW system generates more power than I need (even with extra fridge/freezer, kids growing up, etc.)...

    Committing to long term payments, or putting out cash today for the next 25 years--Too many variables. And, from what I have seen, the money spent on a solar GT power system does not translate into increased home

    Whereas insulation, new windows, new A/C system all can add to the base value of the home (maybe 50%, perhaps helps sell the home sooner if a tough market, etc.). There are enough people that have "concerns" with solar panel bolted to the roof (leaks, worried about electrical wires on roof, etc.) that it can make the home tougher to sell.

    Also, as mentioned above, when installing solar, you have to have good sun (no shadows) from ~9a-3pm (at least) per day... If there are neighborhood trees, 2nd floor additions next door, power lines, etc. that cast shadows across your roof/installation--Wait... Figure out what it will "cost" you in lost power. Shading a few months in the winter, perhaps not too bad. Shading in summer will be a killer.

    -Bill

    Good info., thanks.

    We have got our electricity bill down pretty good. We live near the desert in So. California and in the summer it can get pretty hot. The last few days it has been well over 100 and the home stays about 80 without the air on. We have two freezers running in the hot garage which drives the bill up. The home is pretty well insulated. I figure our average electric bill keeping at $116.00 average is darn good.

    But it will rise in the future. Right now our bill is about $1364 a year. It is estimated that in 10 years, our bill will be $2304 and in 20 years $4124 a year. With the system that I am thinking about our bill in 10 years will be about $276 and in 20, $823 for the year.
  • jimShaw
    jimShaw Registered Users Posts: 18
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing
    vtmaps wrote: »
    I am off grid and know very little about leases. My concerns: What if the company goes out of business? What is the condition of your roof? (I assume your array will be roof mounted). If your roof needs repair before the lease is up, what happens?

    Do they guarantee the cost savings? If not, be sure that the system is well designed. Some shady businesses will install a system in the shade! Even an overhead power line or a TV antenna can cast enough shade to cut your power generation in half.

    --vtMaps

    Yes, I found this on their web site...

    Performance Guarantee
    As a Solar Lease customer, we’ll guarantee how much energy your system will produce each year and, if we fall short, we’ll pay you for the difference. In the far likelier case that your system over-performs, however, you won't be charged a cent more.
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing
    jimShaw wrote: »
    Performance Guarantee
    As a Solar Lease customer, we’ll guarantee how much energy your system will produce each year

    until we go bankrupt. We are especially likely to go bankrupt if we install under performing systems.

    Jim,
    you should realize that there will be a lot of bankruptcy and consolidation in the industry in the years ahead. Especially as incentive programs wind down.
    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing
    vtmaps wrote: »
    until we go bankrupt. We are especially likely to go bankrupt if we install under performing systems.

    Jim,
    you should realize that there will be a lot of bankruptcy and consolidation in the industry in the years ahead. Especially as incentive programs wind down.
    --vtMaps

    I think he will be OK if Lowes,is,standing by the contract.
  • jimShaw
    jimShaw Registered Users Posts: 18
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing
    solar_dave wrote: »
    I think he will be OK if Lowes,is,standing by the contract.

    I went down to my local Lowe's and talked to the manager and was told that Lowe's will back the system. I didn't trust a local manager. So, I called the corporate Customer Center and ask the same questions. The person I was talking to did not know the answer. She went higher up and was told that Lowe's is in partnership with the company and if anything happened they would back the agreement.

    Now, if Lowe's goes BK, I am probably out of luck.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing

    Home Depot was involved with my system ~8 years ago--And even though the whole installer model has changed (from buy the system to leasing), they have seemed to be in the background when I needed some replacement parts for my system.

    So, it appears that the box store backup warranty is still working for me.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • jimShaw
    jimShaw Registered Users Posts: 18
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing
    BB. wrote: »
    Home Depot was involved with my system ~8 years ago--And even though the whole installer model has changed (from buy the system to leasing), they have seemed to be in the background when I needed some replacement parts for my system.

    So, it appears that the box store backup warranty is still working for me.

    -Bill


    Very good to hear. I didn't know H.D. was also doing solar
  • rollandelliott
    rollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing

    Well you can probably buy all the components and permits for a 5.1KW system for around $12000.
    If you search around you might be able to find someone to install it for around $4,000. Or install everything yourself and hire an electrician to do wiring. You could consult a tax CPA and see if there is a way for you to get the credit creatively. Perhaps sell property to realtive and then they can get 50% of cost back? I know maybe too much headache.

    That would be a lot better than leasing it!!!! Why do you think you have to pay tax on it? Most states have no taxes on solar. Also your assumption that electricity rate is going to increase 5 to 10% per year is unrealilistic. I doubt it has increased that much. My rate just went up 10% and I've lived here for 10 years. Some states it actually has gone down! Don't believe all the sales talk a leasing company feeds you.

    Also I would look at it as an investment that only returns around 5 to 6%.

    If solar was such a great investment everyone would be doing it. It's just average IMHO as a financial investment. You can probably get the same return on a money market or mutual fund account. averaged over 20 years.
  • jimShaw
    jimShaw Registered Users Posts: 18
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing
    Well you can probably buy all the components and permits for a 5.1KW system for around $12000.
    If you search around you might be able to find someone to install it for around $4,000. Or install everything yourself and hire an electrician to do wiring. You could consult a tax CPA and see if there is a way for you to get the credit creatively. Perhaps sell property to realtive and then they can get 50% of cost back? I know maybe too much headache.

    That would be a lot better than leasing it!!!! Why do you think you have to pay tax on it? Most states have no taxes on solar. Also your assumption that electricity rate is going to increase 5 to 10% per year is unrealilistic. I doubt it has increased that much. My rate just went up 10% and I've lived here for 10 years. Some states it actually has gone down! Don't believe all the sales talk a leasing company feeds you.

    Also I would look at it as an investment that only returns around 5 to 6%.

    If solar was such a great investment everyone would be doing it. It's just average IMHO as a financial investment. You can probably get the same return on a money market or mutual fund account. averaged over 20 years.

    Yes, I possibly could buy the components for about $12000. Then I would have to pay someone to install and my guess would making the entire cost over $16000. More than my lease pre-pay. I would own the system and all the cost to maintain and breakage. I live on a golf course and there will be breakage. With a lease, the leasing company takes care of any problems with no charge to me, very worry free.

    We have enough tax write-offs that washes out any taxes owed. So, the federal rebate is a loss, making a purchased 5.1 system cost me about $29,000.00 out of pocket. Our home we will die in, making any home value increase also a loss. If God wills my, wife and I will live another 20 years making a 20 years lease perfect with a 5 year extension if needed.

    Can't sell our home. We have a reverse mortgage so we can live in our home for the remainder of our lives free from any payments except for taxes. That is why a purchase is no good for us. We don't need to have the home increase in value. Our prayer is it doesn't because if it does the tax man comes.

    "Why do you think you have to pay tax on it?" This is California. You pay tax on any purchase. For the lease, the tax was built into the $14000 pre-pay.

    "electricity rate is going to increase 5 to 10% per year is unrealilistic"
    mMy electrical company is Edison. They have a 5 tier system. The first two tiers are regulated as to how much they can be raised. That is why Edison is always going to the government for rate increases. The next three tiers have no regulation on them. They can be raised at will. My rates also was just raised 10%. If I look at the projected rate increase and you know there will be because of the rise Edison's maintenance costs, employees, etc., my yearly bill now is $1350 in 20 years it will be around $4,000.00. If I figured correctly, that is about a 30% gradual increase in my electric bill over the years but in relation to my steady income, which will never raise, will be a big crunch especially when you look at all the other increases that will be coming on everything.

    "Also I would look at it as an investment that only returns around 5 to 6%." I don't think of this as an investment more of a survival. It is a way to lower our electric bill. Our income is steady and will not increase over the years. So, every time the electric bill goes up, we will have less of an income. Right now our yearly bill is about $1350. In 10 years, I have seen projections that it will be about $2300 yearly and in 20 years around $4000 yearly. I will be gone by that time and my wife will need every bit of income that is incoming to buy food, medicine, etc. My thinking is to pay now upfront $14000 to have a a little better life in the years to come.

    Regarding your "investment that only returns 5-6%" In today's economy 5-6% is a great return. We have a money market account that is used as an emergency fund only. We can pull out $$$ anytime if something happens and that account gets only 1 1/2%. We are happy to pull out $14000 on a risk free adventure like solar with a return of 5-6%.

    "If solar was such a great investment everyone would be doing it." m I disagree. If I were to purchase the system, I would need about $29,000.00 out of pocket and most people cannot do that. If I were then to make monthly payments on the purchase, the monthly charge alone with the interest would almost wipe out any advantage of solar. As an example: Even with a lease, if I were to come in with $0 down the monthly lease fee would eat up any savings. With $0 down spread out over 20 years there would possibly be a savings of $4,500.00. Not worth the gamble. With a full pre-pay and after deducting the pre-paid from the 20 year estimated savings of about $50,000 there is a net savings of about $29,000.00. Well worth it. I feel most people would do it if they could afford the full upfront payment.

    I really want to thank everyone for their thoughts regarding this post. It has made me think hard about which is the best course for my wife and I. Solar or no solar? I think solar will help our over all situation regarding our dollar survival in our later years. Lease or purchase? Most people would reap a much more financial reward by a purchase but in a few cases, such as mine, where a federal tax credit is lost; the home will be the home we die in and never sell (those who inherit will); we do not want any type of home value increase because of taxes; maintenance will be of no concern, therefore, a lease for me is preferred.


    I thank you all. I will be starting the process Monday.


    m
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing

    Double check who pays for damage from golf balls... From what I have seen, the golf course does not--And the golfer may have too, if you can catch/document in the act. Some judges appear to take the path of "... you live in a home on the edge of a golf course, you have assumed the risks of that choice..." and even hold the known golfer harmless--This is not necessarily good law, but will cost more money with the lawyers to overturn.

    I would be a bit surprised if the leasing company would repair damage from golf ball strikes (--just me, I would not write a contract like that unless I made the monthly payments higher or had some other way of getting my repair costs back--although, with leasing, they may be able too between their insurance and all the tax games/deductions they play).

    So--I would confirm with my own insurance agent about what happens if a panel gets a strike... Do they pay 100%, or pay age of panel/25 year life, do they pay with a deductible, etc. Will they pay if the leasing company pays for the repairs and sends you the bill?

    Will the price of your home owner's insurance rise because of the solar panels on roof (installing a "glass roof" next to a golf course)?

    Do you get lots of balls on/near the property? (you have been "warned" that this is the nature of the location)...

    Personally, even though I am a fan of owning vs leasing--I agree that the current environment greatly favors a good lease.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • jimShaw
    jimShaw Registered Users Posts: 18
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing
    BB. wrote: »
    Double check who pays for damage from golf balls... From what I have seen, the golf course does not--And the golfer may have too, if you can catch/document in the act. Some judges appear to take the path of "... you live in a home on the edge of a golf course, you have assumed the risks of that choice..." and even hold the known golfer harmless--This is not necessarily good law, but will cost more money with the lawyers to overturn.

    I would be a bit surprised if the leasing company would repair damage from golf ball strikes (--just me, I would not write a contract like that unless I made the monthly payments higher or had some other way of getting my repair costs back--although, with leasing, they may be able too between their insurance and all the tax games/deductions they play).

    So--I would confirm with my own insurance agent about what happens if a panel gets a strike... Do they pay 100%, or pay age of panel/25 year life, do they pay with a deductible, etc. Will they pay if the leasing company pays for the repairs and sends you the bill?

    Will the price of your home owner's insurance rise because of the solar panels on roof (installing a "glass roof" next to a golf course)?

    Do you get lots of balls on/near the property? (you have been "warned" that this is the nature of the location)...

    Personally, even though I am a fan of owning vs leasing--I agree that the current environment greatly favors a good lease.

    -Bill


    It is in the agreement that EVERYTHING is covered ACCEPT if I screwed it up. That means golf balls. No, we don't get that many balls but as soon as the system is up, it will happen.


    m
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing

    bb.,
    i wonder if those judges would change there tune if it was a rifle range next door?:confused:
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing

    The city fathers did shut down the rifle range a couple miles from where I grew up a couple decades ago... There was supposedly a rifle round found in the roof of a home about a mile from the range (90 degrees to the direction of normal fire).

    There are only two ranges (other than a couple indoor ranges at stores) within a 20-30 minute drive of my home now. The closer one does not allow center-fire pistols (public hours are in the evenings and the center fire rifle section is is baffled).

    Of course, the "city fathers" was San Francisco (owns parkland/golf-land around many of the areas south of San Francisco)--So was not surprised.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • rollandelliott
    rollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing

    "It is in the agreement that EVERYTHING is covered ACCEPT if I screwed it up. That means golf balls."

    And if they do not honor this claim what are you going to do, sue them? over a $200 solar panel? How fast is this repair going to happen? did they size the solar array string so cheaply that you loose half your production because the string voltage is too low? Are they going to refund you $$$ for the loss production?

    With a warranty that vague and their blind eagerness to install it on a golf strike area, it would not surprise me if they go bankrupt.

    Sorry but I bet when it does happen they will say it is not their fault. Also you better make sure they install it in such a way that it is easy to replace a panel. That means plus or minus 2" in every direction. Because in 5 years they probably can't get an exact replacement. If you KNOW it will happen, that is good reason to Not have it done at all.


    I think your faith in this company to take care of you in the future is a bit too optimistic.

    AS far as maintenance there is hardly any, just clean the panels every so often.

    I do think it is a bit wierd to install a solar array in a golf area too . Good luck.
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing

    It may be a non issue, I had some golf ball sized hail strikes on my panels and suffered no issues. They were severe enough to put divots into some freshly laid stucco, under 30 days old, and took the paint off some much older stucco, it destroyed the screens on the house. It broke the plastic drains around the pool and dented the crap out of the cars, it even broke one windshield.
  • jimShaw
    jimShaw Registered Users Posts: 18
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing
    "It is in the agreement that EVERYTHING is covered ACCEPT if I screwed it up. That means golf balls."

    And if they do not honor this claim what are you going to do, sue them? over a $200 solar panel? How fast is this repair going to happen? did they size the solar array string so cheaply that you loose half your production because the string voltage is too low? Are they going to refund you $$$ for the loss production?

    With a warranty that vague and their blind eagerness to install it on a golf strike area, it would not surprise me if they go bankrupt.

    Sorry but I bet when it does happen they will say it is not their fault. Also you better make sure they install it in such a way that it is easy to replace a panel. That means plus or minus 2" in every direction. Because in 5 years they probably can't get an exact replacement. If you KNOW it will happen, that is good reason to Not have it done at all.


    I think your faith in this company to take care of you in the future is a bit too optimistic.

    AS far as maintenance there is hardly any, just clean the panels every so often.

    I do think it is a bit wierd to install a solar array in a golf area too . Good luck.


    If the guarantee that the system will be fixed is written in the agreement, then it is legally binding and if not fixed, easy to take to a small claims court where they will lose. I don't think Lowe's will go that far.

    Not weird if it is fixed.

    I will have micro inverters used that way if a golf ball does break a panel, the system keeps working with very little loss of solar power
  • jimShaw
    jimShaw Registered Users Posts: 18
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing
    solar_dave wrote: »
    It may be a non issue, I had some golf ball sized hail strikes on my panels and suffered no issues. They were severe enough to put divots into some freshly laid stucco, under 30 days old, and took the paint off some much older stucco, it destroyed the screens on the house. It broke the plastic drains around the pool and dented the crap out of the cars, it even broke one windshield.

    Very interesting to hear, thanks.

    I lived in Colorado for awhile and while there, I watched a hail storm of large hail that destroyed many cars on a new car lot. If a panel can stand up to that type of punishment, fantastic.
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing
    jimShaw wrote: »
    Very interesting to hear, thanks.

    I lived in Colorado for awhile and while there, I watched a hail storm of large hail that destroyed many cars on a new car lot. If a panel can stand up to that type of punishment, fantastic.

    Most panels are pretty resilent, consider tempered glass back up with cells, backed up with a plastics backing all in a aluminum frame.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: I would like your thoughts to my why I am considering leasing vs purchasing

    There are limits:

    Solar panel damage from hail storm


    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset