24v or 12v inverter & bank??

Blackcherry04

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

Anyone that runs a A/C on MSW will tell you it's not the best you can do unless you want to sleep with ear plugs. I am around 5-10 units every weekend and some are real noisy on MSW some aren't, depends on the unit.

Caneman

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

ywhic wrote: »

maybe a 2-3K TrippLite MSW.. but I never saw the followup pics from that other thread..

ywhic, this is the inverter i have been looking at in the other thread... i have not had time to call tripplite to find out the THD on this unit, but I am looking for exactly the same type of use that you are from an inverter... i sent them an email but they never responded, i need to call them and get the specs but just been too busy... here is their info if you are curious and want to call them: tripplite tech support T: 773.869.1234 http://www.tripplite.com/en/support/contact.cfm

Tripplite claims this msw inverter works well with motors and a/c, and the 2400w 24v unit is around $450 if you shop around...

Cariboocoot

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

Photowhit is probably right about the Prosine still being available, at least some models. The confusion comes from the announcement of the discontinuation of some models with the same prefix designations. Combined with the Schneider purchase which seems to have resulted in two semi-separate product lines each with its own web site. I'm never sure when I find something on the web whether it's up-to-date or just old html hanging around because no one has bothered to delete it.

I've asked Jim "Crewzer" (works for the company) if he can clarify what the situation is vis-a-vis product availability in the Schneider-Xantrex line.

The Prosine inverters are some of the best products Xantrex ever made.

Photowhit

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

ywhic wrote: »

I was wondering about the Magnum MM1524AE MSW (24v).

Modified Sine Wave? Your trying to run a motor with fridge and AC

Read the Inverter INFO From Site.

Pay attention to where it says "Motors, such as refrigerator motor, pumps, fans etc will use more power from the inverter due to lower efficiency. Most motors will use about 20% more power"

ywhic

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

Photowhit wrote: »

????????What makes you think it has been discontinued???????

The link to the product on Xantrex's web site?http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/power-inverters/prosine.aspx

Her is a link to discontinued products from Xantrex's web site. I don't see prosine on it anywhere.

Here's a list of current product line, You can follow the path to Prosine.

Lets NOT start rumors, lets show links to facts, if someone has one post it.

Photowhit.. I was inquiring on the Magnum MSW's..

I don't see the Pro SW models on that discontinued list either.. maybe the NAWS page was from back in 2007 like I said earlier..

And they also are on the current models page?!?

I JUST called Xantrex CS number (they answered Schneider) and gave the kid the 806-1220 (Pro SW2000) part number.. and... he says its still a CURRENT and PRODUCTION model with no notes..

Cariboocoot

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

Along the MSW line, there are differences between one and another. Some are nothing but square waves. Others are much closer to sine (and sine inverter is basically very good smoothing on many square steps to achieve less than 3% THD). If the Magnum MSW specs provided are correct, its output waveform should be clean enough to run motors without any problem.

Oh how I wish they'd provide a nice scope picture of the waveform output!

Blackcherry04

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Along the MSW line, there are differences between one and another. Some are nothing but square waves. Others are much closer to sine (and sine inverter is basically very good smoothing on many square steps to achieve less than 3% THD). If the Magnum MSW specs provided are correct, its output waveform should be clean enough to run motors without any problem.

Oh how I wish they'd provide a nice scope picture of the waveform output!

Getting them to run is not the problem, it's sitting in the same room when they are running. Some fans and refrigerators sound like a freight train.

Cariboocoot

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

Getting them to run is not the problem, it's sitting in the same room when they are running. Some fans and refrigerators sound like a freight train.

Yes; I started out running the 'frige on MSW. It clattered when starting, but ran okay. Switch to the sine wave inverter and the clatter on start up vanished.

It can be a crap shoot for sure!

waynefromnscanada

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

Photowhit wrote: »

????????What makes you think it has been discontinued???????
Lets NOT start rumors, lets show links to facts, if someone has one post it.

Perhaps I'm blind, but everywhere I look, including our host's store, this is what I'm finding. Others have told me unless there is old stock, that's it for the Xantrex Prosine 1800/12.
http://products.schneider-electric.us/products-services/products/renewable-energy/
I purchased mine from our host a few years ago.
Regardless, I hope you're right "Photowhit", and that I'm wrong. It would be a terrible shame if they were no longer being made!

Cariboocoot

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

Wayne;

This is why I am confused too: Schneider has one web site with one line of products (which you linked to) and then there's another web site under the Xantrex name with different products (which Photowhit and I linked to).

I confess to having no idea what is going on with that company, but if they are confusing others the way they have us it can't be doing them any good.

BB.

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

As I understand (from a year or two so ago), Schneider was trying to separate the large "Green Energy" produces from the RV/Portable products.

I worked at a company that did this with their communications equipment... We had large equipment for Telecom / large corporations and smaller equipment for much smaller companies...

They split the company and sold to two different buyers. Same software base (originally), common networking interfaces, many larger companies wanted the smaller systems for branch offices, etc... I even designed a "desktop" version of our refrigerator system (was very popular for our software guys--they could have our free standing central office systems right in their cubes for development--and came out way before the next generation small office product. Was funded just from our lab equipment fund). Oh what to do. :roll:

-Bill

ywhic

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

I've got to try and wiggle up $70 to grab one more 145w DM panel by this weekend.. other wise a 24v system is out..

Supposedly they got 700+ panels coming in for the same $160 shipped possibly as soon as this weekend..

Of course I won't I just got bit by the 24v bug now..

Dill

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

you're not installing at your property until next spring, right? You have plenty of time to pickup your last panel, and then get the inverter in a month or whatever.

ywhic

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

Dill wrote: »

you're not installing at your property until next spring, right? You have plenty of time to pickup your last panel, and then get the inverter in a month or whatever.

True.. but I like to gets things done and organized.. (ADHD)

Dill

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

ywhic wrote: »

True.. but I like to gets things done and organized.. (ADHD)

if waiting is what it will take to do the 24V system, wait. It sucks, I know, but it will be worth it. I can't wait to convert my 12V system to 24V...

niel

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

don't take this wrongly as i'm not ripping on your dissorder, but i can top that as i have adwd.
attention deficit wife disorder.

see she will have better things for me to do later throwing out the current plans.:roll::p

Blackcherry04

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

One thing about waiting is you can change your mind a few more times and you might actually have some warranty left when you get it all hooked up.

Neil, They all suffer from that........lol

crewzer

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Jim;

Perhaps you could clarify an issue of availability on other Xantrex products?
This thread: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?16150-24v-or-12v-inverter-amp-bank/page3
Since the Schneider takeover of Xantrex it is sometimes unclear as to which products are available and which aren't. Having one web site with the Schneider name and some of the product line and another with the Xantrex name and other products is confusing. Well, to some of us who are easily confused anyway. :roll:

Understood. Due to vertical integration opportunities with other Schneider products and services, as well as growing international markets, our business has changed. Following the acquisition by SE, the "mobile" products -- those intended for boats, cars, commercial/industrial vehicles, RV's, etc. -- have been marketed under the Xantrex name. There's strong brand identification in that market. The familiar "old" Xantrex renewable energy products are marketed under the Schneider Electric and "Conext" names to align them with SE's strong international brand recognition.

Information about current Xantrex products is available from the Xantrex homepage.

Information about SE's Solar Business Products is available from SE's Renewable Energies homepage.

I hope this helps!
Jim Goodnight
Schneider Electric
Solar Business

NOTE: I copied Jim's response to the inquiry about the Schneider/Xantrex confusion from the thread on the XW 80-600 V MPPT. - 'Coot

ywhic

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

I keep coming back to the Samlex/Cotek/GoPower inverters.. the only issue I see is the wires going into the units..

Most of them use a PIN type with screw.. and say they come with a PIN for upto 1/0 wire.. though the PST-1500 says it can handle 2/0 wire in the terminal..

The SSW models 1000-1500-2000 say M9 nut and stud..

I just read the Samlex SA-1500 book and it also states upto 3 minutes at 1700 watts.. (must use the same board as the Cotek ST/SK).. Same with the GP1500..

The SSW 2000 (for 12v) says 90% eff.. 0.9A at no load.. granted its usually special order and the low-rung of the Samlex.. but for $430 its not bad..

The Samlex PST-150-24 comes in at $460.. the Cotek SK-1500-24 is $529... the SA-1500-24 is $557 but has the meter graphs (like the identical GP1500 same pricing too).. The Cotek SK-1500 is about the same price as the SA-1500.. The nice hardwire ST-1500 is coming in at $639... the same for the Cotek S1500 which some sites are discontinued is coming in at $520 though it looks almost just like the SA-1500..

So yes I may have been (still am) obsessing a lil bit..

ywhic

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

I edited this post.. read the MS300 won't power a fridge without caps and such..

Heres my watt list.

14 watt laptop 3 hours
5 watt cell charger
13 watt CFL bulb *2 5 hours
90 watt (max) ShurFlo AC water pump with pressure switch
LED TV 150 watts 2 hours
A/C approx 550 watts running load
Small Fan 35 watts 2-3 hours
Fridge is small 4-7 cu ft type about 1KW/day usage.. (I think I read this in a Cariboocoot post..)
Hotplate as needed with nothing else on 800 (sm) or 1300 (lg burner) watts..

Dill

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

I don't have any input on the inverters, but since I am shopping for a 24V inverter myself, I'll be watching the replies carefully.

ywhic

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

I am looking at the Bluesea battery fuses.. (I already have a Bluesea switch going to the 'inverter').



The Bluesea #5191 is for 1 fuse and the Bluesea # 2151 for upto 2 fuse on the same battery LUG..



Should I get the 2 fuse version for $4 more?? I was thinking what-if I add another inverter down the line or another controller..

Cariboocoot

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

Another inverter will require more battery capacity and more solar capacity; you'll either re-wire he whole thing or (easier) put in a complimentary system. If the two fuses aren't needed for this design, go with the one.

Expanding a solar-electric install is too often a case of starting over. It's usually best to accept the limits of the first one, keep using it, and add a second one to handle increased power demands.

ywhic

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

Ok my 6K digital temp A/C here in PA.. is 110 watts when just on Fan 3 mode.. (with a killawatt meter)

Then when I turn on the digital A/C cool part & wait 3 minutes (some kinda builtin timer I guess).. it jumps to 759 watts.. then settles back down to 500-600..

Maybe if I follow the same plan.. fan 1st.. then turn to COOL.. I could get away with a 1500 watt inverter.. which would definatly make me weigh/lean toward a 24v system..

I found they still make manual switch models in 4500-6000 BTU range as well..

Dill

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

Al,

let me share with you some testing I've done over the past couple of weekends in my cabin...and keep in mind it's in Minnesota, not Texas

It is a 16x12 with 8 foot walls, and a sleeping loft. Only about 15% of it is currently insulated with R-15 and Reflectix (working on that getting more done)

outside temp was approx 91F, dew point around 65. A 5000 BTU AC running on my Honda EU1000i didn't cool the building off at all, even after the sun went behind the trees and shaded the cabin. It felt nice standing directly in front of it, but that's about it. I am going to return it and go for the 6800 BTU model, and hope the EU1000i will start it.

In Texas, even well insulated, err on the side of the larger AC unit.

ywhic

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

Dill wrote: »

Al,

let me share with you some testing I've done over the past couple of weekends in my cabin...and keep in mind it's in Minnesota, not Texas

It is a 16x12 with 8 foot walls, and a sleeping loft. Only about 15% of it is currently insulated with R-15 and Reflectix (working on that getting more done)

outside temp was approx 91F, dew point around 65. A 5000 BTU AC running on my Honda EU1000i didn't cool the building off at all, even after the sun went behind the trees and shaded the cabin. It felt nice standing directly in front of it, but that's about it. I am going to return it and go for the 6800 BTU model, and hope the EU1000i will start it.

In Texas, even well insulated, err on the side of the larger AC unit.

I hear you.. I will be cooling 10x12 (with 6 foot wall) section of the 12x24 cabin (lower rear of cabin) I have a loft above this area.. not the entire thing.. no worries there.. I was thinking at least a 6K model..

Dill

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

I think you're on the right track then. Look into the Reflectix insulation I mentioned above, even with just that on the south facing roof of my cabin, it made a big difference in inside temps during the day. It says on the instructions to put it on the back of the OSB/plywood roof if in the south, then insulate over top of it, and if in the north, put the insulation against the roof, then the Reflectix over top of it.

ywhic

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

Someone that owed me $225 is giving me $100 tommorrow.. so do I get panel #6.. and bank $40..

:cool:

Photowhit

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

Dill wrote: »

...It is a 16x12 with 8 foot walls, and a sleeping loft. Only about 15% of it is currently insulated with R-15 and Reflectix (working on that getting more done)

outside temp was approx 91F, dew point around 65. A 5000 BTU AC running on my Honda EU1000i didn't cool the building off at all, even after the sun went behind the trees and shaded the cabin. It felt nice standing directly in front of it, but that's about it. I am going to return it and go for the 6800 BTU model, and hope the EU1000i will start it.

In Texas, even well insulated, err on the side of the larger AC unit.

I'll split the distance, and offer up my usual, first 1/2 insulated is NOT insulated, since it all works together, it must be finished to evaluated, you wouldn't assess a refridgerator with out a door on it?

For those of you who can, BUILD IN THE SHADE, INSULATE VERY WELL. MY 10x16 cabin with 8' walls and 13' peak inside, cools off nicely with in an hour and the 5100BTU AC set to 72 kicks off and the duty cycle is reduced to maybe 30% during our 95 degree days we've been having. I work into the evening and go to the cabin and turn on the AC about 1-3AM(I took a new time in yesterday, hope to come home to cool cabin this weekend) and run it until I go back into work about 11:30AM, it's normally close to 90 outside by then, but the AC cycles very little.

I'm in the shade and have 6" of insulation in the walls likely around R20, OSB inside(arrrgh) and T1-11 outside, faced insulation R19 I some of it has aluminum facing, some not, you can tell which when there's snow on the roof! The aluminum faced does help reflect the warm air. It really doesn't cost much more to build 6" walls, if I do it again, I may even go to 24" centers and put in steel strapping for corner tension, or do a tiled OSB wall covered with plastic siding(only thing I hate worse than OSB)

For the record, I work in a 6x10x7 4" wall, guard shack in the sun, during the week I get there at 3:30 and with the air running full blast it's 80 degrees (we do have 4 windows, and 2 fridges, and a monitor, radios, and a TV)

Also a fridge that draws 1Kw in 72 degree temps might draw 3Kw in 95 degree temps.

...and do you own this 'LCD'(I hope) LED lit? TV cause it must be pretty large, I think My 32" draws 65watts, I know it's close to 'best of class' pre LED 22" TV which claimed 45 watts, but I never could get it that low.

Dill

Re: 24v or 12v inverter & bank??

a valid point about being uninsulated, R.01 doesn't do much!

I might end up having to keep the AC anyways, I can't find the receipt!