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morpho
September 13th, 2011, 16:21 PDT
Hello,
Does anybody out there have any new info about gas ovens that don't have a glow bar or other heavy electrical ignition systems?
I keep coming up against this road block when it comes to an oven.

The Mrs' wants an oven...and I kinda like lasagna...so does anyone out there have a solution to our dilemma?...besides a mud brick wood burning one?
(I have already built one and loved it, but not all that convenient when it's -30 outside.)

The only name I keep coming across is Peerless (Premier), but I keep reading bad things about the build quality.
Do you have one?
Do you like it?
Or is it garbage?

Thanks for your input.

Blackcherry04
September 13th, 2011, 18:16 PDT
We built in one of these a couple years ago. The oven is about 6" narrower than a regular size oven, but works great for the two of us. I keep the pilot lights turned off and wife lights it manually.

http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/item/magic-chef-22-gas-range-black/35476

Ralph Day
September 14th, 2011, 3:55 PDT
Hi Morhpo
I have the Premier Peerless and am satisfied. The build quality is fine for the price. If you're paying $thousands, maybe not, but for under $800 then it's fine.

I got mine through a local propane supplier, no box store carried them. A couple of out of the box issues. The thermocouple for the oven had shaken loose from it's anchor point...easy to fix, just re-align. One "spud" the little oriface for one burner was cross threaded...just a little socket to remove and replace. You could see the flame pattern was not correct when lit (before repair). These little things would be a pain if you called for a service call or had to return, but were easily remedied.

\overall, a satisfied customer.

Ralph

Dave Angelini
September 14th, 2011, 7:44 PDT
Hi Morhpo
I have the Premier Peerless and am satisfied. The build quality is fine for the price. If you're paying $thousands, maybe not, but for under $800 then it's fine.

I got mine through a local propane supplier, no box store carried them. A couple of out of the box issues. The thermocouple for the oven had shaken loose from it's anchor point...easy to fix, just re-align. One "spud" the little oriface for one burner was cross threaded...just a little socket to remove and replace. You could see the flame pattern was not correct when lit (before repair). These little things would be a pain if you called for a service call or had to return, but were easily remedied.

\overall, a satisfied customer.

Ralph

and there is the Pro line of Pierless that are near 1K$ that look upscale.
I had been told by them that because of federal regulations they were to discontinue the mercury based oven system they use and be force to glow plug it. Their website seems to indicate that they are recycling the mercury and maybe have found a way to continue their incredible system. Anyone want to check this further?

It basically is a spark lit pilot that stays on during baking and goes off when you turn off the oven. This allows a match to be used if there is no power which is a green light for offgrid or people who lose power and want to bake.

Almost all my people use them! They do have room for improvement as some of my most decerning customers want ceramic tops for an absolute low maintenance requirement. Nice old American company.

Cariboocoot
September 14th, 2011, 8:36 PDT
Dave brings up an important point.

The "mercury based system" refers to the thermo-coupler used to detect heat and shut off the gas if no flame is present. The all-electronic stoves use electrical sensors and control valves. When a thermo-coupler fails, it fails "off". I'm not so sure the electronic systems will default that way, because components in a circuit can potentially fail to "off" or "on". Getting rid of that "unsafe mercury" may lead to greater potential for gas asphyxiation and explosion.

Hopefully not. I have never examined one of the new control circuits so I don't know how they're handling the situation. I'm just suspicious of the constant parade of "this is better" that so often turns out not to be. It's what happens when you get older. :p

And yes I have one of the standing pilot units. It works fine. You just have to get use to the noises made by stamped metal components expanding and contracting as it heats up and cools down. :roll:

morpho
September 14th, 2011, 13:56 PDT
Hmmm?

Okay, lots of people with the same "problem".

If I was back in Latin america I could get something with no problems...I even remember seeing nice 36" stainless steel slide ins that didn't need any kind of electrical power re-ignition systems .
Damn safety freaks!
;)

So the peerless is ok...but not great.

I thought about an RV stove, but the wife really wants a proper range...and I don't blame her. I have put her through a lot on my little off grid mission.
But I have considered an RV stove/oven with the stove elements turned off and hidden under the counter. Then I could just have the oven part.
I'd install a nice stainless 36" cooktop in the counter and she will stop giving me the evil eye...hopefully.

Hmmm?

Okay,
thanks everyone...I will keep looking around and checking in to see if anyone has some more advice.

Thanks a lot.

morpho
September 14th, 2011, 14:57 PDT
Okay...I had a momentary: "my brain is going to work" moment

What about Yachts and sailboats?...they must have fancy stainless steal appliances.

Here is a company in Canada that makes such a thing as an oven that does not have a glow bar...as far as I can tell anyway.
Not cheap though...might be cheaper to add more panels and run a glow bar...hmmmm?

http://www.force10.com/gas_gimballed_5burner.html

ggunn
September 14th, 2011, 15:03 PDT
Hmmm?

Okay, lots of people with the same "problem".

If I was back in Latin america I could get something with no problems...I even remember seeing nice 36" stainless steel slide ins that didn't need any kind of electrical power re-ignition systems .
Damn safety freaks!
;)
When I am in Mexico, I stock up on the half sized butane fireplace lighters without child protection that they sell there. They are great for lighting candles and things, and you don't have to contort your hands pushing one thing and pulling another to make them work. There are no children in my house, so no one is at risk.

PhilS
September 14th, 2011, 16:01 PDT
I have one of the Atwood RV range combinations in our RV.

I would NOT recommend it for a home. The oven is too small, and too small means uneven baking even IF there's sufficient room for whatever she's cooking.

When we had to replace our home oven I just got one with a glow bar. I wince when we turn it on but after preheating, it really is glowing only half the time. I've never put my kill-a-watt on it (why bother... gotta use the oven anyway). I am sure it uses in excess of 100w.

I can say that this oven has never meant the difference between having sufficient power capacity or having to start the generator. Yeah, it sucks power, but not every day and not the whole time the oven is on.

I attempted to find a gas oven without the glow bar and had no success, partly because we needed one to fit the old opening and most ovens were too wide by a few inches. THAT and the difficulty you are experiencing finding such an animal.

Phil

morpho
September 14th, 2011, 16:56 PDT
ggunn:

SAFETY SHMAFETY!
;)


PhilS:

Do you mind if I ask the make and model of the range you purchased?
I am now in the middle of trying to squeeze the info out of the companies about their glow bars. (whether they are on full time or intermittently)

Thanks

PhilS
September 14th, 2011, 17:02 PDT
ggunn:

SAFETY SHMAFETY!
;)


PhilS:

Do you mind if I ask the make and model of the range you purchased?
I am now in the middle of trying to squeeze the info out of the companies about their glow bars. (whether they are on full time or intermittently)

Thanks

I think Frigidaire. I have had to replace the glow bar once and learned more about it from an appliance repair forum.

The current flow through the glow bar is what energizes the fuel solenoid. First the glow bar starts to heat, then when resistance is low enough the gas turns on.

I doubt any of the ovens would keep the bar glowing all the time.

Phil

morpho
September 14th, 2011, 20:28 PDT
Thanks!

I was just trying to figure out on the Fridgidaire website if they had had 300w or 1500w glow bars

okay....back to the intertube search...

morpho
September 14th, 2011, 20:32 PDT
As far as the peerless premier pro blah blah....
I am not looking to wow anybody with how cool looking my range is....(maybe my wife is) I simply don't want to buy a piece of junk.

Would any of you buy it again?

I wish I could have a look at one first hand.

Dave Angelini
September 14th, 2011, 20:36 PDT
Hmmm?

Okay, lots of people with the same "problem".

If I was back in Latin america I could get something with no problems...I even remember seeing nice 36" stainless steel slide ins that didn't need any kind of electrical power re-ignition systems .
Damn safety freaks!
;)

So the peerless is ok...but not great.

I thought about an RV stove, but the wife really wants a proper range...and I don't blame her. I have put her through a lot on my little off grid mission.
But I have considered an RV stove/oven with the stove elements turned off and hidden under the counter. Then I could just have the oven part.
I'd install a nice stainless 36" cooktop in the counter and she will stop giving me the evil eye...hopefully.

Hmmm?

Okay,
thanks everyone...I will keep looking around and checking in to see if anyone has some more advice.

Thanks a lot.

How it he-- did you read that the Perrless/Premier is "OK and not great"? Look at the website. You can oder these from Lowes. You can look all you want but there is very little choice here. A glow plug oven will cycle on and off about 300 watts when the flame is on. For a large offgrid system this is no big deal and easily done by running generators.

If you want to minimize the energy you need and like to bake alot in the heart of winter, a glow plug oven is just a poor way to design! Good luck!

ggunn
September 15th, 2011, 7:33 PDT
ggunn:

SAFETY SHMAFETY!
;)


Well, there's safety and then there's safety. Seat belts in cars? Sure. Guard rails on staircases? Absolutely. Fall protection for workers on rooftops? I'm for that.

But our litigious society has taken things to extremes, like a warning label on a hammer advising you that if you hit yourself over the head with it, it may cause injury. Wow, really? :confused:

Actually, I'm not opposed to "child protection" measures on sources of fire (although a study I heard about on the radio showed that most kids can figure out how to get around it), it's just that it's not needed in all cases.

Cariboocoot
September 15th, 2011, 8:10 PDT
Actually, I'm not opposed to "child protection" measures on sources of fire (although a study I heard about on the radio showed that most kids can figure out how to get around it), it's just that it's not needed in all cases.

When our first grandson started walking around we put "child guard" things on everything, including the front door knob. Darned if he wasn't the only one who could get the door open then!

Sometimes safety devices are good, sometimes they're just an expensive nuisance. This includes the latest regulations for installing arc-fault breakers for bedroom circuits, in my opinion. The ground-fault requirements for PV's would be another example of dubious value.

It's funny how so many generations managed to grow up without the government protecting them from every little hazard in life. And yet today people of all ages still get injured and killed in the normal course of life.

morpho
September 15th, 2011, 9:05 PDT
Dave Sparks,

I have probably read every "customer review" on just about every stove out there and the peerless one just kept coming up as working fine, but the fit and finish was very problematic. Which I'm not all that concerned about myself, but when things do go wrong...and they always do...(don't even get me started on my yamaha generator woes right now)
I have no place locally that deals with Peerless.
I am several hundred miles away from the nearest Lowes, but an Electrolux dealer can be found in every direction in every small town around me.
A camp fire is starting to look good again.

As far as the safety mechanisms in place to keep us all alive....how in the heck are child safety mechanisms supposed to work?....have any of you sat and watched a kid plunk themselves down in front of a computer these days?
A 3 year old is likely to simply google the solution to breaking into the child proofed cabinet.

mikeo
September 15th, 2011, 9:28 PDT
It's funny how so many generations managed to grow up without the government protecting them from every little hazard in life. And yet today people of all ages still get injured and killed in the normal course of life.
Don't you really mean the Insurance Industry? They cause the government to mandate many safety requirements, is it for your protection, or their bottom line? Since you are the one paying for the protection features and it saves them on insurance payouts they are for it. If insurance companies had to foot the bill from their bottom lines for all protection features on appliances, I suspect we would have many fewer.

morpho
September 15th, 2011, 9:29 PDT
Here is another one....

http://www.uniqueoffgrid.com/en-ca/Products/Product-Line-up_/Off-Grid-Ranges/Unique-30SS.html

techntrek
September 15th, 2011, 9:36 PDT
Sometimes safety devices are good, sometimes they're just an expensive nuisance. This includes the latest regulations for installing arc-fault breakers for bedroom circuits, in my opinion.

Not to get OT, but why not arc-fault breakers? This is an upgrade I made a few years ago when I learned about them. Easy to swap out the breakers for an older home, not all that expensive, solves a known problem. I don't see why not.

mikeo
September 15th, 2011, 9:42 PDT
Here is another one..
Has anyone checked this stove out?
http://www.vendio.com/stores/RvFirstChoice/item?lid=17067425&source=Vendio:Google%20Product%20Search

Its a bit small but shouldn't need electricity.

Cariboocoot
September 15th, 2011, 12:07 PDT
Not to get OT, but why not arc-fault breakers? This is an upgrade I made a few years ago when I learned about them. Easy to swap out the breakers for an older home, not all that expensive, solves a known problem. I don't see why not.

You live in a better country.
Up here the arc-fault breakers are 4X the price of standard breakers, and they trip when you try to run the vacuum or plug in a space heater.

Meanwhile over-loaded "lamp cord" extension cords continue to burn down houses. :roll:

Dave Angelini
September 15th, 2011, 15:49 PDT
Here is another one....

http://www.uniqueoffgrid.com/en-ca/Products/Product-Line-up_/Off-Grid-Ranges/Unique-30SS.html


This looks interesting Thanks! I will look at it further! It says there is no standing pilot for the stove top which is the same as the Premier. It does not say how the oven operates and I assume it is a spark lit pilot like the Premier. http://www.premierrange.com/rangeP30.php They sure look the same!


I think I have 30 customers (about) using the Pro models of Premier and they really have not had any problems other than damage in shipping. I have 2 of them myself. Not as nice as a GE profile but you do have to power the GE and in the depth of winter it is nice to bake all day and not worry about the clouds!

morpho
September 16th, 2011, 7:15 PDT
WOW, this is an amazing searching process...around and around I go.

I thought I had come to the conclusion that in the end I will just get a GE or Electrolux or...and just deal with the glow bar issue...I have to run the generator at some point and the batteries almost always need topping up so...
But then I start looking into models and I was amazed (probably shouldn't be) that ALL of them have a computer in them...that means they ARE going to go sideways quickly.
(exactly who are these people who need to have a "chicken nugget - wave touch preset" anyways.
I can find lots of high end models that have no computer....VIKING, THERMADOR, Blue star etc.
for 5...6...7 thousand dollars. Ya, thats not going to happen. (though I was drooling on the websites)

Why is it that GE or any one of these companies can't or won't make a simple range?
Just one of their ranges without a computer..they can even have the glow bars etc...
I read the forums and all I get are complaints about the computer.

SO, this brings me right back PEERLESS!
I really wish I could see one of these things.

Any other advice?

Dave Angelini
September 16th, 2011, 7:38 PDT
WOW, this is an amazing searching process...around and around I go.

I thought I had come to the conclusion that in the end I will just get a GE or Electrolux or...and just deal with the glow bar issue...I have to run the generator at some point and the batteries almost always need topping up so...
But then I start looking into models and I was amazed (probably shouldn't be) that ALL of them have a computer in them...that means they ARE going to go sideways quickly.
(exactly who are these people who need to have a "chicken nugget - wave touch preset" anyways.
I can find lots of high end models that have no computer....VIKING, THERMADOR, Blue star etc.
for 5...6...7 thousand dollars. Ya, thats not going to happen. (though I was drooling on the websites)

Why is it that GE or any one of these companies can't or won't make a simple range?
Just one of their ranges without a computer..they can even have the glow bars etc...
I read the forums and all I get are complaints about the computer.

SO, this brings me right back PEERLESS!
I really wish I could see one of these things.

Any other advice?


I was told by a GE engineer I know that when he looked into it there was testing that went on in the 80's and they found that Ladies were scared of the spark sound from an oven but not from the top burners????

The bottom line is both of these that we are talking about are Porcelain finished tops and while decent, will not stand up long term as well as some of the better units do. Not just Ceramic but others also. Ceramic is amazing in that 3 college males can use one for a year and not clean it. A maid can come in and in 30 minutes bring it back to showroom finish.

Dave Angelini
September 16th, 2011, 9:29 PDT
Coot you are the man! :p

techntrek
September 16th, 2011, 9:53 PDT
Have you tried calling the customer service lines for GE and other "cheaper" companies to see if they have any non-computer models?

morpho
September 16th, 2011, 19:27 PDT
""Ceramic is amazing in that 3 college males can use one for a year and not clean it. A maid can come in and in 30 minutes bring it back to showroom finish.""

I take it this is from personal experience!

Ahhh college....wait a second!

What were you doing cooking? Beer covers a bunch of food groups.

I have tried calling the customer service lines..I climbed into their telephone tree and went from branch to branch pushing buttons to try and get where I wanted to go..and in the end I have yet to get an actual person.

I tried to contact peerless, but nobody has returned my call or answered my e-mail.

Dave Angelini
September 17th, 2011, 6:35 PDT
Give Pierless some time. Most Corporations are not quick at this. GE will probably send you an E-mail and someone from the division that builds F16 Jet engines will e-mail a form letter telling you that they can't e-mail you anything because of ITAR and export to non friendly countries.

morpho
September 17th, 2011, 20:58 PDT
hahahahahaha....

so true.

ggunn
September 19th, 2011, 6:32 PDT
I have tried calling the customer service lines..I climbed into their telephone tree and went from branch to branch pushing buttons to try and get where I wanted to go..and in the end I have yet to get an actual person.
Not to hijack, but that drives me bonkers. During one such experience I was reduced to pushing buttons pretty much at random, and after many many minutes of doing that, I *finally* reached someone. I took a couple of deep breaths, and then said, "I have a problem that I hope you can help me with, but first I want to ask you this: How many of the folks that manage to finally reach you are so irritated at your company for their phone system that they immediately try to bite your head off?" She laughed and said, "Pretty much all of them."

Dave Angelini
September 19th, 2011, 8:07 PDT
Companies are doing more with less staff. I know we are!

mike95490
September 19th, 2011, 9:12 PDT
I think Frigidaire. I have had to replace the glow bar once and learned more about it from an appliance repair forum.

The current flow through the glow bar is what energizes the fuel solenoid. First the glow bar starts to heat, then when resistance is low enough the gas turns on.

I doubt any of the ovens would keep the bar glowing all the time.

Phil

Actually, they do, all the time the gas is running. They use half power to keep it warm, rely on flame to keep it hot, and constantly measure the resistance, if it changes, gas goes off, relight cycle begins. Awfull system. Spark ignitors and flame detectors are the way to go, but the circuit is more complex. Range tops have them, and if a breeze blows the flame away from the sensor - zap - zap - zap goes the re-ignitor.


Mike (back from a non-working vacation, still no batteries delivered :(

PhilS
September 19th, 2011, 10:33 PDT
Actually, they do, all the time the gas is running. They use half power to keep it warm, rely on flame to keep it hot, and constantly measure the resistance, if it changes, gas goes off, relight cycle begins. Awfull system. Spark ignitors and flame detectors are the way to go, but the circuit is more complex. Range tops have them, and if a breeze blows the flame away from the sensor - zap - zap - zap goes the re-ignitor.
Mike (back from a non-working vacation, still no batteries delivered :(

Maybe I didn't word my post well enough .... the glow bar shouldn't be "glowing" if the gas isn't supposed to be flowing. There is a short time where the bar glows before the flame ignites.

And thanks, Mike, for further explaining the systems that we off-gridders must compensate for.

What Mike said about measuring resistance I don't doubt. But for us simple folks, if you are watching the glow bar and the flame doesn't seem to be igniting every time, the glow bar can be defective. It can glow, but not enough to open the gas valve. This situation makes for an intermittant problem: "sometimes my oven lights just fine, other times it glows but the oven doesn't light".

But I don't understand the comments about the range... if the flame blows out on our stovetop, there's nothing that would restart it nor stop the gas. I've seen this happen too many times where there's gas flowing but no flame to oxidize it.

On ours, if the flame blows out because the nearby window is open, there is no buildup of propane. But if it blew out and the house was closed up, I can envision an explosion. Dang but that would suck.

Phil

MiamiSunrise
September 19th, 2011, 13:07 PDT
I can indeed confirm that the glowbar can glow without actually drawing the proper amount of current to open the gas valve! My Kenmore (Whirlpool) gas oven at home throws us for some Glowbar Drama every now and then.

The glowbar is made of silicon carbide - an electrically conductive and very heat tolerant, but BRITTLE AS HECK material.

The mechanism is actually REALLY simple. A bimetallic resistance element inside the gas valve responds to the current flowing through the glowbar (they're in series). As the glowbar heats to its full operating temperature, it begins to exhibit a negative temperature coefficient resistance characteristic - in most systems, this would just be thermal runaway, which ends in *POOF!*. The glowbar, instead, begins to draw an increased amount of current as it gets to a nice marigold orange, which leads to a greater voltage drop across the bimetal in the gas valve, heating it up a bit and opening the valve. A small crack in the silicon carbide helix on the glowbar will lead to it glowing but not drawing enough current to pop open the gas valve. A short in the system blows the bimetal in the gas valve to kingdom come like a fuse element. Do not try applying 120V straight to your gas valve to test it!

The interesting thing about the glowbar system is that since it works on thermal runaway, in a sense, it's fairly tolerant of voltage differences. What kills glowbars is thermal shock occurring during the oven's self clean cycle (hello, designed-in failure, ugh!) or foreign objects hitting the glowbar (spills!)

But yeah... dare I say it might be better to get an old-school pilot light oven if you're off grid... the really cheap models (like Roper by Whirlpool) can be found with pilot ignition. These usually also do not have sealed burners, so you have to do the whole lift and clean under the top dance, sadly. Ew.

Dave Angelini
September 20th, 2011, 7:46 PDT
The small Frigedaire and Kenmore Propane gas dryer that is sold with their energy star washing machines is a little more intelligent in that the igniter is only on to ignite. I would think that this circuit could be used for a gas range. It still has that "sweet" 3 amp AC load but only the first 30 seconds (or so) of heat demand.

To the OP, I did recieve e-mail from Pierless so they are awake!

morpho
September 21st, 2011, 9:01 PDT
Thanks for all the info everyone...sadly I still am undecided on what to do.

If I could just see a peerless premier pro up close. Open the door, turn the knobs, etc. That would make me a whole lot happier.

Even the pictures online are almost all the companies photos, so you may not be getting the real "picture".

Anyway, I'll keep looking.

morpho
October 6th, 2011, 12:35 PDT
Just in case anyone cares,
I ended up with a BlueStar gas range....yes it has a glow bar...but, I will live with it.
Thanks everyone.

benthere
November 18th, 2011, 21:39 PST
For anyone that cares, we have this oven and it does not even have a power plug. http://www.homedepot.com/Appliances-Kitchen-Appliances-Ranges-Gas-Ranges/Americana/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbv5rZ1yi/R-100098056/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053&superSkuId=202759837

That's not necessarily an endorsement. Ours was converted to propane and collects a bunch of soot in the burner manifolds. I don't know if the problem is a design flaw or a lousy conversion. Elevation may also be a factor.

I'm looking for one with a brain because my wife is forgetful and occasionally leaves the oven on.

icarus
November 19th, 2011, 4:12 PST
Check your manifold pressure,, and adjust the air gates on the manifolds. Make sure there is little yellow in the flame.

Tony

rgs03833
November 25th, 2011, 14:26 PST
Hi,

I have a few, including my Income Property. They're GREAT as a Safety Feature, because if they don't have the Glow Bar, the Pilot will be on 24/7 which create Heat in the house, and if you have the Oven Pilot and the 4 Stove Tops it does create alot of Heat in the Summer. I've live with this for years....

I'm glad they changed that, because before, you can't leave anything on the Stove Top without being affraid of Fire, so that is the plus. Also, if you turn on the Oven and the Pilot is NOT on, by the time you discovered that the Pilot is off or blown off for some reason. You have to open the Windows to air out the Gas smells....

Also, if you have an Income Property like I do, it's a Peace of Mind while you have Tenants or even yourself. The only down fall to the Glow Bar is that you have to have the Electricity on or the Oven won't turn on. So if you have an Off Grid System, you need to save your power, lol or even big snow storms, you just got the Stove Tops since you can still light it manually. Also I may add that the Glow Bar do go BAD, it took me a while to figure it out that it is the Glow Bar was bad on one of my Tenant's Stove. Funny thing is that the Glow Bar was still working, but it didn't get the Temp high enough to open the Gas Line Valve to ignite the oven. So it kinda blow me off from diagnostic.

I know i'm late... But just incase someone have this problem in the future, also good choice on your part. You'll be happy with it... Trust me ;)

BRAVO to MiamiSunrise... He explained the Glow Bar really clear :)

BB.
November 25th, 2011, 16:57 PST
When I have watched appliance service people debugging a glow bar system... They always used a clamp on AC Amp Meter to measure the glow bar current--Many times the glow bars crack and the current falls--but they still look to be working OK.

Don't remember, but I seem to recall that 4-5 amps (120 VAC glow bar) seemed to be OK.

-Bill

icarus
November 25th, 2011, 17:53 PST
As I understand it, the way the glow bar system works, is that the gas valve won't open until the glow bar has drawn X amps for a certain amount of time. So even a glow bar that still glows red, may not draw enough current to allow the gas valve to open, ensuring that there is enough "glow" to light the gas once the valve actually opens.

Tony

Volvo Farmer
December 1st, 2011, 5:04 PST
Sorry, late to the party here.

Flat glowbars are supposed to draw 3.2 to 3.6A to open the gas valve. Round ones are somewhat less, 2.5 to 3A. God bless the engineer who decided to put silicon carbide ignitors in ranges because I repair appliances for a living and my kids need to go to college. I sell dozens of them every year.

I haven't seen anyone mention the Whirlpool DSI ranges yet. They use a spark ignition and a flame sensor for both the oven and the broiler. They have an electronic control board that has a bit of a 24/7 load but it is very small. My off grid neighbors bought one last Christmas and I installed it for them. I put a kill-a-watt on the thing but don't remember the exact numbers. I seem to recall that it was only pulling 5 watts or so while off and less than 40 watts while on.

These ranges are available under the Whirpool and Kenmore brand, but not every Whirlpool or Kenmore range is a DSI (Direct Spark Ignition) model. It has been my experience that the salesmen in most big box stores are clueless as to what kind of ignition system is in a range.

All these ranges that I have seen have a waist high broiler. If you open the door and see one of these next to the burner, it is DSI
http://www.partselect.com/898618-1-M-Whirlpool-9758079-Bake-Igniter.jpg

Don't confuse it with one of these. This is a glow bar
http://www.allpartsforahappyhome.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/1990.jpg

If I didn't have a nice 1948 40" chrome top Okeefe and Merritt in my house, I would buy one of these Whirlpool ranges in a heartbeat. They are really well suited to off grid use.

green_field
December 1st, 2011, 6:36 PST
um, about a year ago, wife and I bought a plain and simple pilot light gas stove, brand name Estate. we're off the grid, so the compromise was acceptable, the little heat the three pilot lights (one for each pair of top burners, one in the oven) add to the room is ok. we're in the Missouri Ozarks, and a lot of folks here use tank propane, so this kind of stove, while not common, is still available (we got our at the appliance store in town 33 miles away).

Windsun
December 1st, 2011, 6:47 PST
I haven't seen anyone mention the Whirlpool DSI ranges yet. They use a spark ignition and a flame sensor for both the oven and the broiler. They have an electronic control board that has a bit of a 24/7 load but it is very small. My off grid neighbors bought one last Christmas and I installed it for them. I put a kill-a-watt on the thing but don't remember the exact numbers. I seem to recall that it was only pulling 5 watts or so while off and less than 40 watts while on.

These ranges are available under the Whirpool and Kenmore brand, but not every Whirlpool or Kenmore range is a DSI (Direct Spark Ignition) model. It has been my experience that the salesmen in most big box stores are clueless as to what kind of ignition system is in a range.

Good info, since I am shopping for a new gas range right now :) I would note though that some Whirlpool ranges got a mediocre reliability rating from CU, but they don't break it down on electronic vs glow bar types.

Dave Angelini
December 1st, 2011, 7:52 PST
My Gas Dryer works the same way as Volvo Farmers ignition info and I have been wondering when it would get into a range. Thanks for the info Mr. Volvo. Did you ever get your tracker to be reliable?

Volvo Farmer
December 1st, 2011, 10:23 PST
My Gas Dryer works the same way as Volvo Farmers ignition info and I have been wondering when it would get into a range. Thanks for the info Mr. Volvo. Did you ever get your tracker to be reliable?

I find that hard to believe, as I have not seen a gas dyer with spark ignition manufactured in the last 30 years or so. Almost every one I have ever seen uses a silicon carbide ignitor with a heat sensor that turns the ignitor off when it turns the gas valve on.

My trackers are pretty reliable except when one of Duane's boards blows up. I have a half dozen old boards but have not had to replace one in eight or nine months now, with three arrays tracking.

Dave Angelini
December 1st, 2011, 10:33 PST
It is not a spark but it is only on to ignite the gas. Once the gas is lit the AC amperage drops and I assume another sensor is sensing the lit flame.

Glad you got the sun in the bulls eye!

mikeo
December 1st, 2011, 12:22 PST
This is the only oven I have found so far with DSI
http://www.whirlpool.com/-%5BSF216LXSQ%5D-1001446/SF216LXSQ/
It looks pretty good to me and the price is not too bad. Know nothing about its reliability

Dave Angelini
December 3rd, 2011, 8:53 PST
This is the only oven I have found so far with DSI
http://www.whirlpool.com/-%5BSF216LXSQ%5D-1001446/SF216LXSQ/
It looks pretty good to me and the price is not too bad. Know nothing about its reliability


http://www.premierrange.com/rangeP30.php
It does look pretty good except it has what looks like a porcelin top which is not going to last any longer than the reference here from Premier. The Premier has the spark ignition for the oven. Quite a few of my Female associates want a ceramic top which can be brought back to showroom finish easily. I could not find other model ranges either in Whirlpools "6th sense" series.

mikeo
December 3rd, 2011, 13:16 PST
what looks like a porcelin top
What is so bad about that. I think all the stoves I have owned in the last 40 years has had porcelin tops. Yes they can be chipped if something heavy is dropped on them. Yet I see plenty of stoves that are 50 years old with porcelin tops, yes that is old fashion and out of style. but the tops usually are in much better conditions then the burners and controls. Also there are scratch repair kits for old porcelin stoves.

Volvo Farmer
December 3rd, 2011, 13:41 PST
Quite a few of my Female associates want a ceramic top which can be brought back to showroom finish easily.

Ceramic top is by definition, an electric range. All gas ranges have porcelain over steel or very rarely, stainless steel.

Dave Angelini
December 3rd, 2011, 15:52 PST
Ceramic top is by definition, an electric range. All gas ranges have porcelain over steel or very rarely, stainless steel.

Ever look at a gas GE profile or the higher end Whirlpools? It is a personal matter for sure and most guy's probably could care less. Once you use something really nice that can be easily maintained at a new like appearance it is a factor. I do some very high end offgrid homes and I always look for low energy appliances. Some of the professional ranges are complete energy hogs so I am interested in anything new.
http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=SpecPage&Sku=PGS968SEMSS

westbranch
December 3rd, 2011, 17:57 PST
too bad guys

from the link: "Model no longer being manufactured "

another guy problem with those 'new style' ranges, with the electronic controls on the low front panel, is that at a house party a bloke over 6 foot can inadvertently park their butt on the controls and turn the oven on or off or up... I know from first hand experience....twice... at different kitchens, different makes too, just the same style... good thing there was nothing to burn in the ovens...:blush::blush:

TheBackRoads
December 3rd, 2011, 22:14 PST
I know everyone has come to the conclusion that normal gas ranges use energy for the glow bars (whatever you want to call them) in the ovens, and I can confirm that our new double oven uses ~400W when the flame is on/about to come on. So if both ovens are on its about 800W... standby w/ clock is about 3W.

Kenmore Double Oven (http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_02278903000P?prdNo=13&blockNo=13&blockType=G13)

Just my $.02

mike95490
December 3rd, 2011, 22:58 PST
too bad guys

from the link: "model no longer being manufactured "

another guy problem with those 'new style' ranges, with the electronic controls on the low front panel, is that at a house party a bloke over 6 foot can inadvertently park their butt on the controls and turn the oven on or off or up... I know from first hand experience....twice... At different kitchens, different makes too, just the same style... Good thing there was nothing to burn in the ovens...:blush::blush:

buns off the ovens !

Volvo Farmer
December 4th, 2011, 6:20 PST
Ever look at a gas GE profile or the higher end Whirlpools? It is a personal matter for sure and most guy's probably could care less. Once you use something really nice that can be easily maintained at a new like appearance it is a factor. I do some very high end offgrid homes and I always look for low energy appliances. Some of the professional ranges are complete energy hogs so I am interested in anything new.
http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=SpecPage&Sku=PGS968SEMSS

Well, you learn something new every day. I have to admit I have never seen that before!

The first thing I thought about when looking at that thing is what happens when you boil a pot over? Looks to me like it all runs straight off the cooktop and down into the crack between the range and the cabinet.

Dave Angelini
December 4th, 2011, 8:49 PST
The GE in the link is a "slide in" type range. There is nothing new about this type of range BTW. It is a flush mount as oposed to a "freestanding". The Premier that I still reccomend (but most of the females reject) is also a "slide in".

Offgrid everything in the best low energy designs is based on winter and so being able to bake all day, or all night and heat the home as a side benefit is a goal. Burning a couple KWH doing this is just cyling batteries needlessly. It also leads one to the day they get to lift batteries again.:grr

I continue to hope that someone will post here that they have a high-end range that only uses the igniter to light the oven flame and then goes out once the gas ignites. This would be acceptable in termes of energy usage. The other thing I hope is that Premier would just build a ceramic top on their model. One of their people told me that they are a union company and it would be when pigs fly that they would change anything.http://www.premierrange.com/rangeP30.php

westbranch
December 4th, 2011, 12:54 PST
T the igniter to light the oven flame and then goes out once the gas ignites. /rangeP30.php[/URL]

I was just thinking about our camper Fridge, you have to manually press a button to light, it snaps continuously till you release the button. Just like a BBQ igniter.
Wonder why they can't use the existing technology in stoves???:confused:

mikeo
December 4th, 2011, 13:50 PST
Wonder why they can't use the existing technology in stoves
That is what the electronic ignition does on the stoves we have been talking about, produces a spark when you press the knob in light the burner position. I don't know why there are not more choices of stoves with this feature though. I suspect the glow bar system is cheaper and safer to build. There still has to be a separate sensor system to detect if the fire goes out and shuts of the gas to the burner with spark ignition.

Volvo Farmer
December 4th, 2011, 15:55 PST
If you have a few hours to kill and you want to armchair search for Whirlpool DSI ranges on the 'net, I would go to Sears.com (they are a major reseller of Whirlpool). Find the model number of the range for sale, then go to Sears parts site and type in the model number and look at the diagrams to see if it has a silicon carbide igniter or not.

These DSI ranges appear to be getting more popular than they were a few years ago. I have seen what I would consider gorgeous specimens, in all black and stainless steel, five burners, self cleaning oven, huge, thick grates, etc. However, they were all free standing, not slide in.

From a repairman point of view, slide in ranges are nothing but trouble. They are often more expensive to fix and always more expensive to replace than free standing. If your customer is really so wealthy that they demand a slide-in range, or a ceramic top, I would just smile and agree with them and add panels and batteries to my design to compensate for the additional electric draw.

westbranch
December 4th, 2011, 16:17 PST
has to be a separate sensor system to detect if the fire goes out and shuts of the gas to the burner with spark ignition.


Yup the old thermocouple that has been around forever it seems and is still used on propane fridges and LPG/LNG DHW tanks.

Maybe there aren't enough requests made to the manufacturer to make them aware there is some pent up demand...
e

Dave Angelini
December 4th, 2011, 21:30 PST
Mercury = Thermocouple

mike95490
December 4th, 2011, 22:33 PST
Mercury = Thermocouple

Huh ? Thermocouples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermocouple)are 2 dissimilar wires, (iron–constantan), (copper–constantan) or (chromel–alumel) are what we use at work all the time.

I think the mercury is used in thermometer type systems, with an expansion bellows and a switch.

Dave Angelini
December 5th, 2011, 7:37 PST
The main reason that many of the manufactures of the oven gas/flame control system went to glow plugs was the mercury in the old systems. Premier almost discontinued their line of ranges last year and went to glow igniters because of it. They got around it by starting a recycling program for the oven burner mechanism. Who knows if that will last but for now it save them.
http://www.premierrange.com/faq-mercury.php

CDN_VT
December 10th, 2011, 18:02 PST
Mr Mike and Dave are both correct.


Mike is correct on Thermocouple,,,,that are 2 dissimilar wires, (iron–constantan), (copper–constantan) or (chromel–alumel) are what we use at work all the time.

Dave is correct that Premier use's mercury But is NOT using a Thermocouple but instead use's a hot bulb system .. and has for years.
""safety valve capillary bulb from the oven pilot.""

I'll see If i can post a picture of one (Need to find the spare I bought Yearssss ago) in case ..

You know , if you have one , You'll never require it.


They work very similar in holding the pilot supply open , but unlike my Gas water heater , it has power wires ..

HTH's

VT

mike95490
December 10th, 2011, 22:24 PST
pic's attached
http://www.ultimheat.com/Bulb%20and%20capillary%20thermostats%20and%20contact%20therm ometers.jpg

Differentiated from the millivolt thermal-piles, because the copper tube is not detachable, but permanently attached to the control device.

http://www.ultimheat.com/Bulb%20and%20capillary%20thermostats%20and%20contact%20therm ometers.jpg

Vic
December 13th, 2011, 15:44 PST
My $0.01,

Have had a Peerless Premier for six years, and have been very happy with it. It is in black porcelain finish, which has been very serviceable.

Has not been used much for baking, but that seems to work well. i Have no use for a ceramic cook-top, as the Premier cleans up well with little effort, but a convection oven would be great.

Am in the market for an additional off grid LPG stove (at another location), and expect that it will be another Peerless Premier, in black.

I think that most large kitchen appliances have been cheapened out -- much lighter guage steel etc. Plus packing materials reduced/elinimated, which makes them much more prone to shipping damage. The Whirlpool refer that was bought (six years ago) for the current off grid cabin, came without any cardboard whatsoever. Just wrapped in shipping film and edge protectors. I picked it up at the warehouse, so believe that it never had any more packing on it.

Hope that Peerless has not gone to Glo-Bars. Interesting read, Thanks, Vic

CDN_VT
December 17th, 2011, 15:53 PST
We are going to purchase a new Peerless Premier or a Unique Stove..
The older unit will be moved to my Boyz room Out building for an extra area to brew the wart & wine making..
Unique use 2 9volts for its spark start , while the Peerless use 120v~ ..
Peerless is manual start on oven section (without shore power) plus you need to be a flexible squatter for that enjoyment..

As much as this types easy , moving in Gas lines, installing ventilation hoods take time.
In doing much reading on different systems / makers (Euro & Down under) the corrugated flex stainless steel feed line / tube that North America uses seems to have some fire aspects in high lightning strike areas.
They sometimes are the best ground to the underground line... Just something to consider. I'm not using one for that reason ..

VT

mikeo
December 18th, 2011, 7:02 PST
Unique use 2 9volts for its spark start
Looked at their website and it mentions no pilots on the top burners (good), but how does the oven work? Is it manual or does it also have spark ignition?

wrdaigle
December 18th, 2011, 15:35 PST
Looked at their website and it mentions no pilots on the top burners (good), but how does the oven work? Is it manual or does it also have spark ignition?

I have a Unique stove. The oven does have spark ignition...BUT it ignites a standing pilot light. We didn't realize this when we bought it and were rather disappointed. You can get down on the floor and blow out the pilot after each use. We tried this at first, but found it difficult to relight (it sometimes took several minutes). I think the flow to the pilot light is adjustable. We may just need some adjustment. In the end, we just gave up -- we let the pilot run all winter long and blow it out in the summer. We love the stove. We had trouble with two of the four spark igniters at first, but Unique replaced them right away.

CDN_VT
November 22nd, 2012, 23:08 PST
Sorry Mikeo, just getting this subscribe threads down.

External power to ignite Oven & top burners , BUT they both may be lite ,,by a long match under in the bottom pan / grill for the oven .
and no pilot lamp when oven is off. We use LPG

MY wife NOW loves it , (I Live with a Cook who , has added to the waist ;) }
You need to adjust the flame/ draft , tune the system.
Mr MikeO , I see your fingers/post .. Right up yur ally.

Very simple , and I have added toys to make the cook enjoy more.
She hates the old electric, that WE still use the "sucker"(powder coat emulsifier )

Sorry on the late reply , but after 2 warranty calls (they sent parts ASAP) and my install and tune.
Wife learn't different burners to temp & such .
Flawless..



VT